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Author Topic:   Young earth creationism is valid and the macroevolutionary hypothesis is not valid
kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 286 of 316 (93865)
03-22-2004 2:32 PM


Nothing has zero causal power
I believe that nothing has no causal power and it certainly does not have the power to cause gigantic explosions as per some Big bang theorist say (I do not hold to the position that a Big bang/explosion created our orderly universe). We certainly do not check to see if terrorist have "nothing" in order to cause plane explosions. I would say that scientists look for causes of effects and that from nothing comes nothing. Let us take a look at forensic science. Would it be acceptable for a coroner to put on a death report that "nothing" was the cause of death. I believe that some materialist have resorted to nothing as a causal agent out of desperation. It is true that both the materialists and creationists have stated that from a physical point of view there was absolutely nothing at one point. This obviously was a novel situation. I would argue, however, that there are many novel situations that arise but we must not abandon the tools of deductive and inductive reasoning of logic and science when encountering novel situations. With this in mind, do scientist have any observations of nothing doing something let alone creating something. No they have not. Do scientist have any observations of nothing causing explosions? No they do not. So if we do not accept nothing as causing little explosions why would would insist that it causes big explosions. Nothing is not exactly nitro glycerine. I see materialist appealing to nothing as a natural result of having a truly impotent philosophy and it is very fitting that some materialist would appeal nothing as some powerful force that created the universe.
Now Crashfrog was unable to falsify my example of the law of non-contradiction - namely the dog and non-dog example using Godel. This is obviously because the law of non-contradiction is extremely useful and practical.
Now it is true that the law of non-contradiction only be useful in a logical universe and it does require axioms. Obviously, we have to appeal to self evident truths. For example, triangles have three sides. I would say, however, that without logic communication and reasoning would be entirely impossible and it is ultimately preferable to being illogical. It is also true that some things are hard to categorize and this can create difficulties. For example, is a tomato a fruit or vergetable? In short, is a tomato a non-fruit or fruit. I admit that categorization can be problematic and also that axioms are part and parcel of the law of non-contradiction. I would say though that there there is a world of difference between something and nothing. Thus, I believe that my Sproule reference was entirely correct which stated:
"In essence, self-creation requires the existence of something before it exists: For something to come from nothing it must, in effect, create itself. Self-creation isa logical and rational impossibility. For something to create itself it must be before it is.This is impossible. It is impossible for solids, liquids, and gases. It is impossible for atoms,and subatomic particles. It is impossible for light and heat. It is impossible for God. Nothinganywhere, anytime, can create itself."
taken from: Page Not Found - JA Show
I would also agree with Paul that the gospel is not dependent on persuasive words of wisdom and that the power of God working through someone's life is far more powerful ( 1 Corinthians 2: 1-4). In short, philosophical theism has never been a powerful force. I do think thought that Christianity is rational faith and a evidential faith and it can hold its own in the intellectual arena. With this in mind, I do strongly suggest reading Sproule's book. I also realize that some of the positions I have taken in this particular post and in the latter section of this post string are due to to my past reading of various books and webpages that I have not discussed. I also know that some people at EVC Forum have expressed interest in my postings via email. For those people, I have taken the time to look for some webpages that delve into some interesting material I have not covered or merely alluded to or discussed briefly (It is by no means exhaustive).
Here are the some webpages I would recommend:
http://faculty.winthrop.edu/craigheadh/articles/ghod.htm
Bring You To – The Marketing Blog
http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/philosophy/...
{Shortened display form of URL, to restore page width to normal - Adminnemooseus}
http://brindedcow.umd.edu/236/aquinas.html
Page not found - Apologetics Press
Page Not Found - JA Show
[This message has been edited by kendemyer, 03-22-2004]
[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 03-22-2004]

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by JonF, posted 03-22-2004 2:52 PM kendemyer has replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 287 of 316 (93870)
03-22-2004 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by kendemyer
03-22-2004 2:32 PM


Re: Nothing has no causal power
I believe that nothing has no causal power
Unsupported assertion.
and it certainly does not have the power to cause gigantic explosions as per some Big bang theorist say
No Big Bang theorists mention explosions, gigantic or not. The Big Bang was not an explosion. As with the Casimir effect, you are criticising without understanding. Until you have some basic understanding of cosmological theories your "criticisms" will remain meaningless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by kendemyer, posted 03-22-2004 2:32 PM kendemyer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by kendemyer, posted 03-22-2004 3:11 PM JonF has replied

kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 288 of 316 (93875)
03-22-2004 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by JonF
03-22-2004 2:52 PM


Re: Nothing has zero causal power
To: Previous poster
I did address why I believe nothing has zero causal power. I also suggested some weblinks at the end of my post. If you had examined the links you would have found this:
"Second, then, let us consider the "poof" theory as a theory which could, logically possibly could, be true. From that perspective, we must realize that there is no experience we ever have that would lead us to believe that something can come from nothing. All of our experiences happen in the context of other experiences, in contexts such that if we look long enough and hard enough we can discover regularities, patterns in terms of which we can predict which other experiences we will get. We have no experience whatsoever of things simply "happening." All of science takes for granted that events are linked by causal connections, that there are regularities which prevail throughout all that is. In fact, in both science and in our common-sense, everyday lives we assume that whatever occurs has some cause.[9] To deny this at the ultimate level, at the level of the existence of the universe itself, would undercut this everyday and scientific assumption.
Granted that one must confront the Humean objection about the nature of causality here, but I think that for our purposes it is sufficient to point out that not even Hume has events occurring in a vacuum. It is only necessary connections that he is out to challenge. I am not arguing here for necessary connections but only for probable connections, probable based on the only thing probability can be based on: past experience. I cannot refute Hume on necessary connections or show that past regularities guarantee future regularities. I am only contending that it is reasonable to think that the regularities that prevailed in the past will prevail in the future -- if for no other reason than that we have nothing else to go on. And if that is reasonable, it is also reasonable to believe that if regularities in general prevailed in the past, then regularities in general will prevail in the future. That is to say, it is reasonable to believe that events have had, do have, and will have causes, that nothing just "poofs" into being.
I am suggesting that the proposition that something comes from nothing, if not absurd, if not intuitively false, is at least more reasonably believed to be false than to be true. It is probably true that only nothing comes from nothing and that the "poof" theory of the universe is false. ~A is probably true.[10]"
taken from: http://faculty.winthrop.edu/craigheadh/articles/ghod.htm
Sincerely,
Ken
[This message has been edited by kendemyer, 03-22-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by JonF, posted 03-22-2004 2:52 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by JonF, posted 03-22-2004 3:52 PM kendemyer has replied
 Message 293 by crashfrog, posted 03-22-2004 6:06 PM kendemyer has not replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 289 of 316 (93886)
03-22-2004 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by kendemyer
03-22-2004 3:11 PM


Re: Nothing has zero causal power
I did address why I believe nothing has zero causal power.
Rhetoric is not evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by kendemyer, posted 03-22-2004 3:11 PM kendemyer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by kendemyer, posted 03-22-2004 4:37 PM JonF has replied

kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 290 of 316 (93899)
03-22-2004 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by JonF
03-22-2004 3:52 PM


Re: Nothing has zero causal power
To: JonF
Science uses inductive reasoning. I also used logic.
I also see that you offered nothing to show nothing has causal power.
Sincerely,
Ken

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by JonF, posted 03-22-2004 3:52 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by JonF, posted 03-22-2004 5:35 PM kendemyer has not replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 291 of 316 (93906)
03-22-2004 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by kendemyer
03-22-2004 4:37 PM


Re: Nothing has zero causal power
Science uses inductive reasoning.
Yes, but youoffered rhetoric.
I also used logic
Sort of. Your logic is only as good as your assumptions, and several people have pointed out how poor your assumptions are.
I also see that you offered nothing to show nothing has causal power.
Yup. I haven't made any claims, I have nothing to support. You're the one who has made a claim and supported it with no mare than rhetoric.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by kendemyer, posted 03-22-2004 4:37 PM kendemyer has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 292 of 316 (93908)
03-22-2004 5:42 PM


Ken, your work is inspiring, thank you.

The earth is flat.

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 293 of 316 (93923)
03-22-2004 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by kendemyer
03-22-2004 3:11 PM


From that perspective, we must realize that there is no experience we ever have that would lead us to believe that something can come from nothing.
Except for, of course, the Casimir effect, which is quite literally something coming from nothing.
When are you going to look that up?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by kendemyer, posted 03-22-2004 3:11 PM kendemyer has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by joshua221, posted 03-22-2004 6:43 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 296 by JonF, posted 03-22-2004 9:41 PM crashfrog has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 294 of 316 (93943)
03-22-2004 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by crashfrog
03-22-2004 6:06 PM


Crash can you explain the Cashimir Effect? Or are you going to force me to actually RESEARCH? For something (most likely) easily explained, laziness hits me sometimes.

The earth is flat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by crashfrog, posted 03-22-2004 6:06 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by crashfrog, posted 03-22-2004 7:15 PM joshua221 has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 295 of 316 (93961)
03-22-2004 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by joshua221
03-22-2004 6:43 PM


Or are you going to force me to actually RESEARCH?
I would suggest that you Google it. My clumsy explanations are more likely to confuse you than anything else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by joshua221, posted 03-22-2004 6:43 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by joshua221, posted 03-23-2004 8:15 PM crashfrog has not replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 296 of 316 (93988)
03-22-2004 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by crashfrog
03-22-2004 6:06 PM


that would lead us to believe that something can come from nothing.
Except for, of course, the Casimir effect, which is quite literally something coming from nothing.
And the Casimir Effect is probably just the easiest manifestation of something coming from nothing to explain ... every particle in the Universe is surrounded by a cloud of virtual particles coming from and returning to nothing, and if they weren't our measurements would be very different from what we see.
The Casimir effect: a force from nothing is a reasonably non-technical article on the Casimir effect, including the fact that it has a significant effect on
microelectromechanical systems (MEMS) such as the accelerometer that is part of the control system of the airbag in your car.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by crashfrog, posted 03-22-2004 6:06 PM crashfrog has not replied

kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 297 of 316 (94245)
03-23-2004 8:12 PM


nothing generating something still implausible
Scientific American says vacuums are not empty. So casimer effect producing something from nothing is pure speculation:
taken from: http://www.padrak.com/ine/ZPESCIAM.html
(the above site endorses the Bib bang theory which I think is an invalid theory)
Also, consider this information from a website that explains that a vacuum is not truly empty and the author seems to indicate that the first law is not violated (the first law is the law of the conservation of mass and energy):
"WHY A COSMOLOGICAL CONSTANT SEEMS INEVITABLE
In this section we discuss the form that the vacuum energy-momentum tensor must take, and why the predicted value of vac is unreasonably high (Weinberg 1989; for nontechnical introductions see Abbott 1988 and Freedman 1990).
To a particle physicist, the word ``vacuum'' has a different meaning than to an astronomer. Rather than denoting ``empty space,'' vacuum is used to mean the ground state (state of lowest energy) of a theory. In general, this ground state must be Lorentz invariant, that is, must look the same to all observers. If this is the case, then the stress-energy- momentum tensor Fv of vacuum must be proportional (in any locally inertial frame) simply to the diagonal Minkowski metric, diag(-1, 1, 1, 1), because this is the only 4 x 4 matrix that is invariant under Lorentz boosts in special relativity (as can easily be checked). As is well known, a perfect fluid with density and pressure P has the stress-energy-momentum tensor diag(, P, P, P). (see, e.g. Misner et al. 1973; in this section, we choose units with c = 1). Comparing to the Minkowski metric, it follows that (a) ``vacuum'' is a perfect fluid, and (b) it has the equation of state
4.
Not by coincidence, this equation of state is precisely the one that, under application of the first law of thermodynamics, causes vac to remain constant if a volume of vacuum is adiabatically compressed or expanded: PdV work provides exactly the amount of mass-energy to fill the new volume dV to the same density vac. Thus vac remains truly a constant. Its relation to is simply = 8G vac."
taken from: http://nedwww.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/Carroll/Carroll2.html
Here is some information from an interesting website regarding Casimir effect and zero point energy:
"Specifically, Sakharov suggested that gravity might be an induced effect brought about by changes in the zero-point energy of the vacuum, due to the presence of matter. If correct, gravity would then be understood as a variation on the Casimir theme, in which background zero-point-energy pressures were again responsible. Although Sakharov did not develop the concept much further, he did outline certain criteria such a theory would have to meet such as predicting the value of the gravitational constant G in terms of zero-point-energy parameters. The approach to gravity outlined by Sakharov has recently been addressed in detail, and with positive reults, again by the author. (7) The gravitational interaction is shown to begin with the fact that a particle situated in the sea of electromagnetic zero-point fluctuations develops a "jitter" motion, or ZITTERBEWEGUNG as it is called. When there are two or more particles they are each influenced not only by the fluctuating background field, but also by the fields generated by the other particles, all similarly undergoing ZITTERBEWEGUNG motion, and the inter-particle coupling due to these fields results in the attractive gravitational force.
Gravity can thus be understood as a kind of long-range Casimir force. Because of its electromagnetic unerpinning, gravitational theory in this form constitutes what is known in the literature as an "already-unified" theory. The major benefit of the new approach is that it provides a basis for understanding various characteristics of the gravitational interaction hitherto unexplained. These include the relative weakness of the gravitational force under ordinary circumstances (shown to be due to the fact that the coupling constant G depends inversely on the large value of the high-frequency cutoff of the zero-point-fluctuation spectrum); the existence of positive but not negative mass (traceable to a positive-only kinetic-energy basis for the mass parameter); and the fact that gravity cannot be shielded (a consequence of the fact that quantum zero-point-fluctuation "noise" in general cannot be shielded, a factor which in other contexts sets a lower limit on the detectability of electromagnetic signals).
As to where the ubiquitous electromagnetic zero-point energy comes from, historically there have been two schools of thought: existence by fiat as part of the boundary conditions of the universe, or generation by the (quantum-fluctuation) motion of charged particles that constitute matter. A straightforward calculation of the latter possibility has recently been carried out by the author. (8) It was assumed that zero-point fields drive particle motion, and that the sum of particle motions throughout the universe in turn generate the zero-point fields, in the form of a self-regenerating cosmological feedback cycle not unlike a cat chasing its own tail. This self-constistent approach yielded the known zero-point field distribution, thus indicating a dynamic-generation process for the zero-point fields. Now as to the question of why quantum theory. Although knowledge of zero-point fields emerged from quantum physics as that subject matured, Professor Timothy Boyer at City College in New York took a contrary view.
He bagan asking in the late sixties what would happen if we took classical physics as it was and introduced a background of random, classical fluctuating fields of the zero-point spectral distribution type. Could such an all-classical model reproduce quantum theory in its entirety, and might this possibility have been overlooked by the founders of quantum theory who were not aware of the existence of such a fluctuating background field? (First, it is clear from the previously-mentioned cosmological calculation that such a field distribution would reproduce itself on a continuing dynamic basis.) Boyer began by tackling the problems that led to the introduction of quantum theory in the first place, such as the blackbody radiation curve and the photoelectric effect. One by one the known quantum results were reproduced by this upstart neoclassical approach, now generally referred to as Stochastic Electrodynamics (SED) (9), as contrasted to quantum electrodynamics (QED). Indeed, Milonni at Los Alamos noted in a review of the Boyer work that had physicists in 1900 thought of taking this route, they would probably have been more comfortable with this classical approach than with Planck's hypothesis of the quantum, and one can only speculate as to the direction that physics would have taken then."
taken from: http://www.ldolphin.org/zpe.html
Two theories regarding vacuums:
http://www.ldolphin.org/setterfield/redshift.html
Consider this information from a website:
"Third, the Casimir Effect appears to show the existence of virtual particles that exist in a perfect vacuum. An infinitesimal pressure has been measured within a laboratory vacuum, apparently from these ethereal particles (Baker, 1997). The virtual particles are sometimes further used to explain the origin of the universe. Thus it is said that a quantum mechanical fluctuation of virtual particles long ago gave rise to the big bang expansion. However, this origin explanation fails for at least two reasons. First, the big bang theory postulates no preexisting space or vacuum. Hence there would have been no place for virtual particles to fluctuate. Second, virtual particles, if real, form as matter and antimatter in equal amounts. However our universe appears to consist almost entirely of ordinary matter. Antimatter is distinctly rare."
taken from (also has larger discussion rewgarding quantum physics): Acts and Facts Magazine | The Institute for Creation Research
discussion of zero point energy from a website:
"Question #2: In expanding so rapidly there was a conversion of potential energy to the ZPE (what is the difference between zero-point energy and zero-point radiation?). This was not completed in two days but needed a longer period of time, about 3000 years (?)
Setterfield: Please distinguish here between what was happening to the material within the cosmos, and the very fabric of the cosmos itself, the structure of space. The expansion cooled the material enclosed within the vacuum allowing the formation of stars and galaxies. By contrast, the fabric of space was being stretched. This stretching gave rise to a tension, or stress within the fabric of space itself, just like a rubber band that has been expanded. This stress is a form of potential energy. Over the complete time since creation until recently, that stress or tension has exponentially changed its form into the zero-point energy (ZPE). The ZPE manifests itself as a special type of radiation, the zero-point radiation (ZPR) which is comprised of electromagnetic fields, the zero-point-fields (ZPF). These fields give space its unique character."
taken from: http://www.setterfield.org/other.htm
Discussion of Casimer effect from the same website:
"This links back to another query that you had, namely the reason for the speed of light in the vacuum. This speed, c, is related to the ZPE through the manifestation of virtual particle pairs in the paths of photons. As photons travel through the vacuum, there is a continual process of absorption of the photon by virtual particles, followed very shortly after by its re-emission as the virtual particle pairs annihilate. This process, while fast, does take a finite time to accomplish. Its akin to a runner going over hurdles. Between hurdles the runner maintains his maximum speed, but the hurdles impede progress. The more hurdles over a set distance, the longer it takes to complete the course. This is essentially the reason for the slowing of light in glass, or water etc. Atoms absorb photons, become excited, and then re-emit the photons of light. The denser the substance, the slower light travels.
Importantly, the strength of the ZPE governs the number of virtual particles in the paths of photons. It has been shown that when the energy density of the ZPE is decreased, (as in the Casimir effect where the energy density of the vacuum is reduced between two parallel metal plates), then lightspeed will be faster. The reason is that there are fewer virtual particles per unit length for light photons to interact with. It has been shown that this process can account for the electric permittivity and magnetic permeability of the vacuum. A summary of some of this can be found in an article by S. Barnett in Nature, Vol.344 (1990) p.289. A more comprehensive study by Latorre et al in Nuclear Physics B Vol.437 (1995), p.60-82 stated in conclusion that "Whether photons move faster or slower than c [the current speed of light] depends only on the lower or higher energy density of the modified vacuum respectively". Thus a vacuum with a lower energy density for the ZPE will result in a higher speed of light than a vacuum where the energy density of the ZPE is higher."
taken from: http://www.setterfield.org/other.htm
MY COMMENTARY
It seems as if there is a divergence of opinion regarding the source of zero point energy and the casimir effect. I would say at this point in time our knowledge of physics is too limited to leap to the conclusion that energy or particles appear from nowhere/nothing. I would also say that our instruments we use to observe/measure data from physics are blunt considering the size and speed of the material we are measuring. So to jump to conclusions which contradict more established science at this point is premature.
Next, to those who say the law of the conservation or matter and enrgy is being violated currently, I would say that if the law of the conservation of matter and energy is being violated then where is all the new matter (and energy) going? Are creationist sticking new matter and energy under their mattresses or burying it in landfills created by a vast creationist conspiracy?
Lastly, as I demonstated logic is being violated by those who say nothing created something. Also, nobody has given any solid evidence to show that nothing has any causal power. I also showed that using inductive logic and science that those who wish nothing to have causal power including creative power are making a counter claim to the best evidence at this time (for example, the law of the conservation of mass and energy).
[This message has been edited by kendemyer, 03-23-2004]

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by crashfrog, posted 03-24-2004 1:20 AM kendemyer has not replied
 Message 300 by JonF, posted 03-24-2004 9:17 AM kendemyer has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 298 of 316 (94248)
03-23-2004 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by crashfrog
03-22-2004 7:15 PM


k

The earth is flat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by crashfrog, posted 03-22-2004 7:15 PM crashfrog has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 299 of 316 (94319)
03-24-2004 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by kendemyer
03-23-2004 8:12 PM


So to jump to conclusions which contradict more established science at this point is premature.
The Casimir effect is established science, and the particles appearing spontaneously in otherwise empty volume is confirmed by the presence of Hawking radiation at the event horizons of black holes. So, in fact, something coming from nothing is established science. What is not established science is "something can't come from nothing" - that's merely your own preconception.
Next, to those who say the law of the conservation or matter and enrgy is being violated currently
Nobody's making that argument. The particle-pairs responsible for the Casimir effect do not violate the conservation of matter/energy. Neither, as it turns out, does the creation of the universe, if the total energy of the universe is zero.
Lastly, as I demonstated logic is being violated by those who say nothing created something.
That might very well be. But you have failed to demonstrate that logic trumps observation. And you've failed to demonstrate that nothing even exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by kendemyer, posted 03-23-2004 8:12 PM kendemyer has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Percy, posted 03-24-2004 10:11 AM crashfrog has not replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 300 of 316 (94395)
03-24-2004 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by kendemyer
03-23-2004 8:12 PM


Re: nothing generating something still implausible
It seems as if there is a divergence of opinion regarding the source of zero point energy and the casimir effect.
Not among those who understand the theory, are familiar with the observations, and do not have an axe to grind.
All that your quotes from creationist websites evince is that they know the jargon a little better than you but, like you, they don't have any idea whereof they speak.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by kendemyer, posted 03-23-2004 8:12 PM kendemyer has not replied

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