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Author Topic:   The Three Kinds of Creationists
1.61803
Member (Idle past 772 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 119 of 432 (657540)
03-29-2012 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Straggler
03-29-2012 10:28 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
then it can be scientifically investigated whether supernatural or not?

Sure, except the whole idea of supernatural is that it does not adhere to the laws of physics and scientific inquiry does.

Supernatural by definition is that which is beyond the natural world.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 10:28 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 10:45 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 772 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 126 of 432 (657548)
03-29-2012 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Straggler
03-29-2012 10:45 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
Because science can investigate anything which is real and detectable can't it?

I fear this may be off topic Straggler. I seem to remember a 300 plus post on this very topic. It came down to what one defines as supernatural.

I agree that science can and does investigate anything that is real and detectable. But if the "thing" being investigated is undetectable does that make it "unreal"? Or yet undetected?


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 10:45 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 772 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 133 of 432 (657557)
03-29-2012 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Taq
03-29-2012 10:58 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
Tag writes:

On the face of it, there is simply no reason why the supernatural should be unobservable (unless it doesn't exist).

Yes this follows.
If something supernatural is detected and examined scientifically; then would that not in fact show it to be natural and not supernatural?

Edited by 1.61803, : redundant


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 772 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 135 of 432 (657561)
03-29-2012 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Straggler
03-29-2012 11:00 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
Hi Straggler, we hashed this out already in several supernatural threads. I do not want to way lay the OP 3 kinds of creationist thread.

If you feel the need to investigate further the meaning of supernatural, why not start a new thread? I realize I could of kept my mouth shut so apologize for piping in.

In my opinion, the supernatural is that which is not within the realm of the natural. That which defies the laws of physics. That which is inexplicable. If something touted as being supernatural is at last found to be explained scientifically, then by definition it is no longer supernatural.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 772 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 220 of 432 (657734)
03-30-2012 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Straggler
03-29-2012 11:03 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
Straggler writes:

Good. So are you claiming that supernatural things are simply unable to be detetected by definition?


Well it stands to reason if something breaks the laws of physics, and is inexplicable to every and all inquiry then the only word that best describes such a thing would be....hmmm let me think.....oh yeah,
supernatural

Straggler writes:

If it is undetetable how can it ever be detected and how can anyone ever claim to have any inkling of it's existence?

Yes that is a pickle. As we speak scientist deep in the Earth are monitoring wafers of geranium hooked to vast arrays of computers in the attempt to catch a dark matter particle interacting with geranium atoms to show physical evidence of a substance that supposedly makes up 1/3 of the matter in our universe.. The particles are for all intensive purposes are undectectable and yet we have a inkling of they're existence, que no? Is dark matter supernatural?

There is another theory that reality itself is nothing more than a 2D holograph

If existence itself is illusory then perhaps there is no such thing as supernatural. Perhaps its just a word we use when we do not know the answer.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 11:03 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Straggler, posted 03-30-2012 10:35 AM 1.61803 has replied
 Message 223 by Taq, posted 03-30-2012 10:49 AM 1.61803 has replied
 Message 241 by ooh-child, posted 03-30-2012 12:13 PM 1.61803 has replied
 Message 272 by Buzsaw, posted 03-31-2012 12:09 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 772 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 224 of 432 (657741)
03-30-2012 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Straggler
03-30-2012 10:35 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
Straggler writes:

Do you think "detectable" and "explicable" mean the same thing

No.

Straggler writes:

..or can a phenomenon be both detectable and inexplicable?

I think it depends on the 'nature' of the phenomenon. heh.

As of yet it is still inexplicable how abiogenesis occurred and yet we know it did.

It is yet inexplicable how the universe inflated yet that seems to be the most reasonable explanation.

We can detect the effects of quantum entanglement and yet it baffles and is inexplicable.

These concepts are not supernatural but are a mystery.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Straggler, posted 03-30-2012 10:35 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Straggler, posted 03-30-2012 11:19 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 772 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 226 of 432 (657743)
03-30-2012 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Taq
03-30-2012 10:49 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
Tag writes:

So does this count as an observation of the supernatural? Why not just call gravity supernatural since, like dark matter, we can not directly observe gravity, only its effects on surrounding objects.

Hi Taq.

I do think it is a observation. And as you stated the gravaton has yet to be discovered. But science has long shown gravity to be a natural force in our universe and imo doesn't qualify as supernatural, nor does the strong force, weak force, electromagnetic force.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 772 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 228 of 432 (657746)
03-30-2012 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by Taq
03-30-2012 10:53 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
Tag writes:

The supernatural is irrelevant to how nature works since the supernatural has no discernable effect on nature.

According to some superstitious people this is not they're view. In fact some folks report all manner of ghost interacting with the physical world. Sure we can dismiss the claims as clap trap, but nonetheless the superstitions remain.

What if the supernatural operated in the realm of yet unseen dimensions and the interactions that are registered in our world are transient?

Kinda like the thought that Gravity in some other undetected dimension is such a extremely strong force; that it can be detected in our universe's dimensional plane as relatively weak.

Would undetected dimensional forces be able to have influences in our universe?

Edited by 1.61803, : redundant


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Taq, posted 03-30-2012 10:53 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Taq, posted 03-30-2012 12:52 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 772 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 231 of 432 (657751)
03-30-2012 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Straggler
03-30-2012 11:19 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
Straggler writes:

So, in principle at least, there is nothing to stop us investigating supernatural beings and events scientifically is there?

No.

Don't conflate "inexplicable" (i.e. inherently unable to be explained) with "unexplained" (i.e. able to be explained but presently lacking explanation)

Dude, why would something be inherently unable to be explained? And if something is inherently unable to be explained then it is by definition both unexplained and inexplicable.

ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Adj. 1. unexplained - not explained; "accomplished by some unexplained process"
undetermined - not yet having been ascertained or determined; "of undetermined species"
2. unexplained - having the reason or cause not made clear; "an unexplained error"
incomprehensible, inexplicable - incapable of being explained or accounted for; "inexplicable errors"; "left the house at three in the morning for inexplicable reasons"


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Straggler, posted 03-30-2012 11:19 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Straggler, posted 03-30-2012 11:40 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 772 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 238 of 432 (657761)
03-30-2012 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Straggler
03-30-2012 11:40 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
Straggler writes:

I doubt jar (for example) thinks that understanding the nature of the god he believes in is just a matter of scientific progress or building a big enough particle accelerator.


Ok, but one doesn't have to probe the physical existence of God to find natural examples of the inexplicable. QM is loaded with examples.

In fact I have never met a supernaturalist yet who doesn't define the object of their beliefs as being materially inexplicable in some sense.

That's why they are called supernatural beliefs.....


Yes now your getting it! And I might add that a naturalist can define the objects of his study as completely natural. Thats why they are called naturalist. Hmmm I see a pattern here.

I am a monist though I believe it is all one stuff. And when you get right down to it there isn't even stuff. It is all maya. It is not that big a stretch for someone to equate this with a all encompassing deity such as a god/gods or your chosen comfort food.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Straggler, posted 03-30-2012 11:40 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Straggler, posted 03-30-2012 12:12 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 772 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 246 of 432 (657770)
03-30-2012 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Straggler
03-30-2012 12:12 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Is this all-encompassing thing inherently unable to be scientifically investigated and understood?
I do not know. It seems on a quantum level the very act of observing changes the outcome. It seems reality doesn't want to be pigeon holed.

One belief to reconcile this is that there may be a universal observer, this being the mind of God, if you will. Is God supernatural? I would think if God exist it would be natural as rain. We have scientifically shown and explained what rain is and anything you could ever care to know about rain down to the molecular structure, down to the
atomic components, but what of it? Could rain not be a manifestation of this God?

Well no. Why would it? Occams razor shows through parsimony there need not be anything more than H20. No plan, no reason, just because is reason enough.

If reality is illusory, a projection from a 2D matrix of indelible information that is responsible for our percieved 3D reality, then I'd like to think there is something, like God running the projector.
A googleplex of information being transposed into a sublime movie for the ages.

Or it may be nothing. I do not know.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Straggler, posted 03-30-2012 12:12 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Straggler, posted 03-30-2012 12:52 PM 1.61803 has replied
 Message 253 by Taq, posted 03-30-2012 1:05 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 772 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 251 of 432 (657776)
03-30-2012 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by ooh-child
03-30-2012 12:13 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Heh, I do not know where your from, however if you ever came to Texas your head would explode from the exposure to all the colloquialisms and bastardizations of the English language many Texans spew. But your correction is duly noted. Now go bugger yourself.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

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 Message 241 by ooh-child, posted 03-30-2012 12:13 PM ooh-child has seen this message

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 772 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 252 of 432 (657777)
03-30-2012 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Straggler
03-30-2012 12:52 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Straggler writes:

You seem to be engaging in unjustifiable quantum mysticism and conflating the role of the observer in QM with the need for some sort of ultimate consciousness.

Sounds good to me. Perhaps I should start a cult. The UQM
Unjustified Quantum Mystics.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 772 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 257 of 432 (657783)
03-30-2012 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Taq
03-30-2012 12:52 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Tag writes:

We can play what if all we want. Science focuses on what is. What we can imagine is also irrelevant to what actually is.


Argument from authority about to rear it's head:

Hmmpff, Albert Einstein said that imagination is more important than knowledge.

But your point is taken. However....

If you ever go camping and you feel something squirming around in your sleeping bag, the thought that you imagine it is a venomous snake as opposed to the fact that it is a harmless mouse is relevant if it causes you to break your neck trying to flee.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Taq, posted 03-30-2012 12:52 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 772 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 262 of 432 (657789)
03-30-2012 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Taq
03-30-2012 1:05 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Beliefs do not reconcile anything. Beliefs are just a wish of how someone wants reality to be.
Perhaps in Tag land.

But without beliefs people would be stuck with having to personally verify everything.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Taq, posted 03-30-2012 1:05 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Taq, posted 03-30-2012 2:46 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
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