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Author Topic:   The Three Kinds of Creationists
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 291 of 432 (658228)
04-03-2012 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Taq
04-03-2012 12:07 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Uh, no, it does not require that the conclusion get thrown out unless evidence could be presented that would show that God planted it.
Since that is impossible, we must go with what can be demonstrated.
Where is the problematic worldview?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Taq, posted 04-03-2012 12:07 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Taq, posted 04-03-2012 4:18 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 293 of 432 (658234)
04-03-2012 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Perdition
04-03-2012 12:30 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Perdition writes:
jar writes:
Well all evidence could be planted; that is true today and yes, all knowledge should be taken with a heavy does of salt. Science does this by process and holds every conclusion tentative.
Science may, but legal systems don't. Should murderers and other criminals be able to get off by claiming that any and all evidence showing they committed the crime was potentially planted by god? If you believe that possibility and were on the jury, it should give you enough doubt to let them off.
Is it a good idea for you to try to tell me what I would do?
I do believe that all evidence could be planted by God and I have been on a jury (but get turned down far more often) and I did not find my beliefs sufficient reason to think any evidence was planted.
Folk often claim that the evidence was planted, by the police, the CIA, the FBI, an enemy, person or persons unknown, and it is possible that those claims might be true.
But juries seldom buy the planted evidence ploy.
Years ago there was a magician that did his act during dinner at the Hyatt on Hilton Head, and I saw people sit in chairs that were not there.
In the case of the chair, you test enough for you to be satisfied there is a chair there and then act on what you can know.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 12:30 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 12:55 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 298 of 432 (658249)
04-03-2012 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Perdition
04-03-2012 12:55 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
It's likely a good thing that you are not me then.
I have no idea whether God does plant evidence or not, but I do know that I see no way to ever test whether God planted the evidence or not, and so I simply exclude that possibility unless someone can show sufficient evidence to convince me that is that given case God did plant the evidence.
I also know that the police could plant evidence, or the CIA or FBI and in fact have done so in the past, yet I do not assume that just because they have done it in the past that they did in the case under question without strong evidence that they did it.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 12:55 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 1:12 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 301 of 432 (658252)
04-03-2012 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by Perdition
04-03-2012 1:12 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Perdition writes:
jar writes:
I have no idea whether God does plant evidence or not, but I do know that I see no way to ever test whether God planted the evidence or not, and so I simply exclude that possibility unless someone can show sufficient evidence to convince me that is that given case God did plant the evidence.
But this is what gets me. You say that evidence about god is impossible. You then say that you believe god can do something, but in order to believe it in a specific case, you'd need the aforementioned impossible evidence.
It seems to me that either you don't actually believe god can do something, but are simply open to the possibility, or you're ok with the fact that we may be sending even more innocent people to prison and/or death than we already have evidence for.
I understand that we always make decisions based on incomplete information.
I may even believe that in the case under discussion that God planted the evidence, but also that my belief does no qualify as "reasonable doubt".
I am not okay with the death penalty even when there is overwhelming evidence, and certainly not okay with sending innocent people to prison, but understand that I must weigh the evidence, not my beliefs.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 1:12 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 1:27 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 302 of 432 (658253)
04-03-2012 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by Straggler
04-03-2012 1:16 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Too funny.
Asked and answered many, many, many times. In fact you even quoted the answer to your question.
jar writes:
I don't see any reason to doubt any evidence found.
And correct, I do not find that problematic because we can only work with the knowledge available.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Straggler, posted 04-03-2012 1:16 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by Straggler, posted 04-04-2012 3:28 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 304 of 432 (658255)
04-03-2012 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by Perdition
04-03-2012 1:27 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Again, see the answer to Straggler in the message above.
jar writes:
I don't see any reason to doubt any evidence found.
And correct, I do not find that problematic because we can only work with the knowledge available.
AbE:
Hopefully we all make similar decisions constantly. We have things we believe (she loves me, he is envious, I hate brown ties) but we try to separate personal beliefs and our duty to actually weigh the evidence presented when acting as a jury.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 1:27 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 2:36 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 308 of 432 (658261)
04-03-2012 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by Perdition
04-03-2012 2:36 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Is any evidence that God planted the finger prints submitted?
If not, then I don't see much choice but to disregard that position even if I believe it is true.
Again, please stop telling me what I would think or do.
Edited by jar, : left out "but"

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 2:36 PM Perdition has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 315 of 432 (658290)
04-03-2012 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by Taq
04-03-2012 4:18 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
If it is impossible to get the evidence why should it EVER be considered?
I doubt you can point to anyplace where I said that the scientific evidence should be thrown out.
You're the one that seems to want to throw the scientific evidence away, not I, so it seems that it is YOU that has the problematic worldview.
But if creating strawman arguments makes you happy, please continue.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by Taq, posted 04-03-2012 4:18 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Taq, posted 04-03-2012 5:06 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 316 of 432 (658291)
04-03-2012 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by Perdition
04-03-2012 4:27 PM


acting on personal beliefs
When you are called to be on a jury you are charged to set aside personal beliefs and to make a judgement based solely on the evidence presented.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 4:27 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 5:04 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 319 of 432 (658294)
04-03-2012 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by Perdition
04-03-2012 5:04 PM


Re: acting on personal beliefs
If the defense made the argument that all of the evidence was planted by a supernatural deity who not only left no evidence of his actions, but that it is actually impossible for the deity to have left any evidence of his actions, would you just ignore that possibility?
Short answer = YES.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 5:04 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 5:26 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 320 of 432 (658295)
04-03-2012 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by Taq
04-03-2012 5:06 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Indeed. So do you personally consider that which can never be evidenced?
HUH?
Maybe it's a language problem or some words left out but I don't understand what you are asking there? I do see the question mark at the end though.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by Taq, posted 04-03-2012 5:06 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by Taq, posted 04-03-2012 5:52 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 322 of 432 (658297)
04-03-2012 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by Perdition
04-03-2012 5:26 PM


Re: acting on personal beliefs
Okay, but you are not me.
I hold very strong beliefs but also understand that there are times that I must set aside my personal beliefs. In this particular case I am charged to make a decision based solely on the evidence presented. I may well believe that the FBI or CIA planted the evidence and know with a very high confidence level that both organizations have the capability to manufacture and plant evidence and that they have done so in the past, but even if that was claimed during the trial, unless evidence to support that claim was also presented, I must disregard my belief.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 5:26 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 5:41 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 324 of 432 (658299)
04-03-2012 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Perdition
04-03-2012 5:41 PM


Re: acting on personal beliefs
Sorry but what you advocate seems irrational. The CIA and FBI are also capable of hiding the evidence of them planting evidence so well that it is often decades before it is discovered that they did plant evidence. It seems to me to be the height of irrationality to then consider that they might have planted the evidence and then hidden the evidence that they planted the evidence and ... on down the rabbit hole.
I see no problem. I try not to follow white rabbits down the rabbit hole.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 5:41 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by Perdition, posted 04-04-2012 2:53 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 326 of 432 (658301)
04-03-2012 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by Taq
04-03-2012 5:52 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
However, it seems that you do believe that unevidenced supernatural actions on the part of GOD do occur. That is your position, is it not?
Kinda.
The actions cannot be evidenced or the entity performing the actions but the results can be evidenced.
I believe that very strongly.
However in the example under discussion, being on a jury in a trial, we are charged to put aside personal beliefs and to make a decision based solely on the evidence presented.
We need to deal with the evidence presented.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by Taq, posted 04-03-2012 5:52 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by Taq, posted 04-04-2012 11:20 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 332 of 432 (658343)
04-04-2012 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 327 by Straggler
04-04-2012 3:28 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
I doubt that you can find where I suggested that you should consider God?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Straggler, posted 04-04-2012 3:28 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by Straggler, posted 04-04-2012 12:22 PM jar has replied

  
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