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Author Topic:   The Three Kinds of Creationists
jar
Member
Posts: 33908
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 151 of 432 (657586)
03-29-2012 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Straggler
03-29-2012 12:41 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
No, I do not accept that it is possible to scientifically investigate the supernatural if the "the supernatural" in question is empirically detectable because there is no way that I can see to tell if what is being investigated i supernatural.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 150 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 12:41 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member (Idle past 208 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 152 of 432 (657587)
03-29-2012 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by jar
03-29-2012 12:48 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
So you agree that we can investigate something that may or may not be supernatural but if it is supernatural then it is impossible to investigate it.

Too funny jar................

Too funny.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by jar, posted 03-29-2012 12:48 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by jar, posted 03-29-2012 1:10 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 155 by Nuggin, posted 03-29-2012 1:58 PM Straggler has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33908
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 153 of 432 (657590)
03-29-2012 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Straggler
03-29-2012 12:54 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
No, we can investigate something claimed to be supernatural, and we can determine if it is not supernatural or if it is unexplainable but so far no one has shown anyway that we could tell if it was supernatural.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 12:54 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Perdition, posted 03-29-2012 2:05 PM jar has replied
 Message 163 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 3:47 PM jar has replied

  
bridgebuilder
Member (Idle past 3609 days)
Posts: 47
Joined: 03-26-2012


Message 154 of 432 (657592)
03-29-2012 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by New Cat's Eye
03-28-2012 5:21 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:

You're introducing a lot of your ideas here in this thread, that have their own errors, but since we like to keep things on-topic, I'm not going to go through them all individually with corrections. You should pick a particular, fairly succinct, topic and propose a new opening post in the New Topic Forum. Then we can focus and learn you proper.
No problem. You'll find people here are very willing to help you if you are willing to learn. If not, then you're just going to open the flood gates of snark and ridicule.

You're introducing a lot of your ideas here in this thread, that have their own errors, but since we like to keep things on-topic, I'm not going to go through them all individually with corrections. You should pick a particular, fairly succinct, topic and propose a new opening post in the New Topic Forum. Then we can focus and learn you proper.

For example, we could talk about Genesis: "pick apart Genesis and make a detailed commentary/exegesis that could possibly compare it to scientific theories"

Or something on science and the supernatural. Or whatever.

Too, you don't have to reply to every single reply to you, especially if you're getting into things that don't have anything at all to do with the topic of the thread - this one being about the kinds of creationists and having nothing to do with Genesis vs. Science nor Science vs. Supernature.

Yes, newbies make a lot of errors. My 1st post wasn't on the topic (sorry), and the digression only escalated as the discussion progressed. I have enjoyed watching the dialog unfold and the unpredictability of it all. Despite my newness and openness to learn from others here, there in no need to be condescending. Thanks for the link on time dilation

Edited by bridgebuilder, : No reason given.


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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 1731 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 155 of 432 (657597)
03-29-2012 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Straggler
03-29-2012 12:54 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
So you agree that we can investigate something that may or may not be supernatural but if it is supernatural then it is impossible to investigate it.

It's a contradiction of terms that is causing the confusion.

If something is "supernatural" it doesn't exist, therefore science can not "investigate" it.

Science can run all sorts of experiments designed to not detect something which doesn't exist, but that's not really science.

If I hold up a pencil and claim it's a bleepbloop detector, then wave it around and proclaim that no bleepbloop was detected, did I do an "investigation"?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 12:54 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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Perdition
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 156 of 432 (657599)
03-29-2012 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by jar
03-29-2012 1:10 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
No, we can investigate something claimed to be supernatural, and we can determine if it is not supernatural or if it is unexplainable but so far no one has shown anyway that we could tell if it was supernatural.

I may be crazy, but I'm going to wade into this quagmire here.

Let's say something supernatural exists, such as a leprechaun.

Of course, we don't know it's supernatural, as that cannot be a conclusion we can make with any certainty, but let's just say, without our knowing it, it was, indeed, supernatural.

Now, we see this being and take it into the lab and study it. We would then, by definition, be studying something supernatural, even though we did not know that was what we were doing.

Right?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by jar, posted 03-29-2012 1:10 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member
Posts: 33908
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 157 of 432 (657603)
03-29-2012 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Perdition
03-29-2012 2:05 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
We can study what we can sense and test, but I cannot imagine any test that would show that something was supernatural.

The best we could do is to determine that whatever it is could be explained naturally, or that it cannot yet be explained, but neither of those tell us whether or not what we are observing IS supernatural.

Consider "Loki" or "Coyote", both tricksters. They could be supernatural yet still influence the results of any test to show that they were NOT supernatural.

I imagine almost everyone here knows that I happen to believe, and believe strongly, that there is Supernatural, but I do not try to show that is true because I realize that even if true, I can not imagine any possible way to test or demonstrate that belief.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 156 by Perdition, posted 03-29-2012 2:05 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
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rueh
Member (Idle past 2900 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


(1)
Message 158 of 432 (657607)
03-29-2012 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by jar
03-29-2012 2:36 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Hello Jar,
Jar writes:

We can study what we can sense and test, but I cannot imagine any test that would show that something was supernatural.

I would suggest if that we could find this,
quote:
The Free Thinking Literalist Biblical Evidence Producing Butt Kicking Buzsaw OEC Who Gives Science Doctorates Educated Into Illogical Abstract Theories A Run For The Money In Threads.
It would be evidence of the supernatural. Since it stands in strict contradiction to all evidence that we have seen to date.

'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX
It takes all kinds to make a mess- Benjamin Hoff

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Perdition
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 159 of 432 (657609)
03-29-2012 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by jar
03-29-2012 2:36 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
We can study what we can sense and test, but I cannot imagine any test that would show that something was supernatural.

I can't think of a test that would show something to be supernatural either. But that doesn't change whether something is supernatural or not, does it? Something can be supernatural without us being able to determine that it is. It can also be supernatural and have attributes we can study.

So, yes, we can study supernatural events or beings. We can't scientifically conclude they are supernatural. We may not even know that what we're studying is supernatural, but our ignorance has no bearing on whether the thing is supernatural or not.


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 Message 157 by jar, posted 03-29-2012 2:36 PM jar has replied

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 Message 162 by jar, posted 03-29-2012 3:46 PM Perdition has replied

  
bridgebuilder
Member (Idle past 3609 days)
Posts: 47
Joined: 03-26-2012


Message 160 of 432 (657611)
03-29-2012 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Nuggin
03-28-2012 5:20 PM


Re: Agnostic
Nuggin writes:

In Plato's cave, the subject can only see the shadows on the wall. They can not evaluate what they are seeing. They can't "turn around" or "cast their own shadow" or "look at their own body".

In other words, they do not experiment. They do not try and disprove what they are seeing.

Science ignores the supernatural because the supernatural does not exist. If it existed, it wouldn't be "super"natural, it would just be "natural".

When you try and include the supernatural into explanations about what is happening or how it is happening, you quickly realize that the supernatural is worthless.

Examples: The wind blows because...
A) Different air pressures in different areas are trying to equalize.
B) Zeus wants it to
C) Ghosts want it to
D) Baby Jesus wants it to
E) Thor wants it to
F) An invisible dragon wants it to
G) Bigfoot wants it to
....
ZZ) An UNKNOWN magical creature or being wants it to

That list is LITERALLY endless and only A offers us anything we can test and later use to explain other things.

If you allow for A supernatural explanation, then you must allow for ALL supernatural explanations which means that no question can be answered ever.

Worthless.

In Plato's cave they are free to experiment, evaluate or whatever they want to do. But they are unknowingly experimenting on and evaluating shadows.

I doubt a researcher would attribute a cause of a supernatural phenomenon to any of the causes you listed after choice "A" but it was very creative.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member (Idle past 208 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 161 of 432 (657612)
03-29-2012 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Nuggin
03-29-2012 1:58 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Nug writes:

If something is "supernatural" it doesn't exist, therefore science can not "investigate" it.

So you think "supernatural" is a synonym of "nonexistent" then?

If not what do you see as the key difference between the two terms?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33908
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 162 of 432 (657615)
03-29-2012 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Perdition
03-29-2012 3:21 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Correct kinda.

It has no bearing on whether the entity or incident or effect is supernatural or not.

The problem is when in our ********* we claim to have studied the supernatural.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Perdition, posted 03-29-2012 3:21 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Perdition, posted 03-29-2012 3:53 PM jar has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 208 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 163 of 432 (657616)
03-29-2012 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by jar
03-29-2012 1:10 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
jar writes:

No, we can investigate something claimed to be supernatural, and we can determine if it is not supernatural or if it is unexplainable but so far no one has shown anyway that we could tell if it was supernatural.

Knowing that something is supernatural is irrelevant as to whether that thing can be studied scientifically or not.

If it exists and is detectable it can be scientifically studied.

It really is that simple.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by jar, posted 03-29-2012 1:10 PM jar has replied

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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 1731 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(1)
Message 164 of 432 (657617)
03-29-2012 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by bridgebuilder
03-29-2012 3:24 PM


Re: Agnostic
In Plato's cave they are free to experiment, evaluate or whatever they want to do. But they are unknowingly experimenting on and evaluating shadows.

Nope.

"they have been from their childhood, and have their legs and necks chained so that they cannot move, and can only see before them, being prevented by the chains from turning round their heads. "

The can only observe and even then, only from one angle.

No experiments whatsoever. They can't even observe themselves to determine if they are shadows.

If you want to use a literary reference, I suggest you at least familiarize yourself with it first.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-29-2012 3:24 PM bridgebuilder has replied

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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 1731 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 165 of 432 (657618)
03-29-2012 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Straggler
03-29-2012 3:26 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
So you think "supernatural" is a synonym of "nonexistent" then?

If not what do you see as the key difference between the two terms?

I prefer to say it's an antonym of "natural".

Natural meaning existing within reality.
"Super"natural existing outside of reality.

It's possible that someone THINKS that something is supernatural but later it is revealed that it isn't

Example: Lightning.

However, when the thing which is being considered is a lifeform which predates reality, it's pretty safe to assume that the thing which exists outside of reality is not a part of the set "reality".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 3:26 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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