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Author Topic:   The Three Kinds of Creationists
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 363 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 361 of 432 (658459)
04-05-2012 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 328 by Buzsaw
04-04-2012 7:37 AM


Re: Tempting Fate
Do you think you can cite more of me than I might cite of yours, which we find problematic, factoring in our diverse views and ideologies regarding evidences and origins regarding observed phenomena etc?

But PaulK's examples aren't examples of things that are wrong from PaulK's ideological view, they're examples of things that are wrong from your own ideological view:

quote:
1) Citing a website devoted to penny stocks as an authority on hurricane frequency without doing adequate checks on the claims it made Message 256 In fact it turned out to rely on assuming that a list of selected major hurricanes was a complete list of major hurricanes making landfall in the U.S. Wrong! (It wasn't even restricted to hurricanes making landfall in the U.S.!)

2) Setting aside data from an authoritative source (NOAA) that contradicted the penny stock website by indicating that there were hurricanes not on the list used by webpennys Message 286 and again Message 17 and again Message 43
3) Falsely claiming that the NOAA list used as a basis for the webpennys article was "the only NOAA frequency trend chart available " when - as had already been shown - it was only an incomplete list of major hurricanes around the U.S. Message 44
Whether the stupidity is in ignoring the existence of the obviously better information that had already been offered, or in thinking that nobody would notice such an obvious falsehood is left to the readers...


Buz, this isn't stuff that's a matter of opinion whether you "believe" that the NOAA list is the only frequency trend chart available. It has nothing to do with whether you're a creationist or an evolutionist, a goldbug or a Keynsian economist, and so on. These are unambiguous errors of fact irrespective of the ideological commitments of your audience.

The truth is, we'd rather see you advance your case for creationism without these errors, because we're most interested in you presenting the best possible case for your ideology. I don't know if that makes any sense to you, but most of us are here to be challenged. How does it challenge us when you're unable to do your own homework?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by Buzsaw, posted 04-04-2012 7:37 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 71 days)
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 362 of 432 (658482)
04-05-2012 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 356 by jar
04-04-2012 3:49 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
I'm not talking about your beliefs. I don't really care what you believe. I want to know if some impossible-to evidence notions are more worthy of consideration than others and if so on what basis.

jar writes:

Well yes, my personal beliefs are worthy of my consideration.

Well Duh! Those who hold even the most insane notions dearly do so because they consider their own notions worthy of consideration.

That's practically tautological.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by jar, posted 04-04-2012 3:49 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by jar, posted 04-05-2012 11:48 AM Straggler has responded
 Message 364 by 1.61803, posted 04-05-2012 11:56 AM Straggler has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 363 of 432 (658484)
04-05-2012 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 362 by Straggler
04-05-2012 11:42 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
Well, since I have never said otherwise, why do you keep asking the same question and expect a different answer?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Straggler, posted 04-05-2012 11:42 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by Straggler, posted 04-05-2012 12:29 PM jar has responded

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 400 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 364 of 432 (658485)
04-05-2012 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 362 by Straggler
04-05-2012 11:42 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
I want to know if some impossible-to evidence notions are more worthy of consideration than others and if so on what basis.

Werewolves. On the basis that the moon is full and the moors foggy. You may scoff and take your little walk through the moors, but dont come crying to me if you get your throat ripped out.

It is impossible to evidence if some asshole thinks he is a werewolf is really a supernatural werewolf. He may simply be a lunatic with a penchant for murder. Does it your skepticism make a difference if you are his next victim? On that basis I contend lycanthropy to be more worthy of consideration than say the Easter bunny, who at best would pummel you with eggs.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Straggler, posted 04-05-2012 11:42 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member (Idle past 71 days)
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 365 of 432 (658487)
04-05-2012 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by 1.61803
04-05-2012 11:56 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
There are lots of lunatics with a penchant for murder.

But I am unaware of any that literally shape-shift into a wolf at full moon and who can only be killed by silver bullets etc. etc.

More to the point - Werewolves aren't impossible-to-evidence. If such things existed what would stop them being evidenced?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by 1.61803, posted 04-05-2012 11:56 AM 1.61803 has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 71 days)
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 366 of 432 (658489)
04-05-2012 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by jar
04-05-2012 11:48 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
Straggler writes:

So do you agree that your own impossible-to-evidence beliefs are no more or less worthy of consideration than the impossible-to-evidence notion of which you were so disdainful that all evidence has been falsely but undetectably planted? Because I am happy to treat them with equal disdain.

jar writes:

Whatever.

Straggler writes:

I'll take that as a grudging 'Yes'.

jar writes:

Then you take it incorrectly.

Straggler writes:

Oh. So your impossible-to-evidence notions are more worthy of consideration than equally impossible-to-evidence notions held by others?

jar writes:

By me? Well yes, my personal beliefs are worthy of my consideration.

After which I made it clear we aren't talking about your specific beliefs. And then asked:

Straggler writes:

I want to know if some impossible-to evidence notions are more worthy of consideration than others and if so on what basis.

jar writes:

Well, since I have never said otherwise, why do you keep asking the same question and expect a different answer?

So once again you seem to agree that your own impossible-to-evidence beliefs are no more or less worthy of consideration (by others) than the impossible-to-evidence notion of which you were so disdainful that all evidence has been falsely but undetectably planted.

As I said - I am happy to treat them with equal disdain.

I'm glad we agree.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by jar, posted 04-05-2012 11:48 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by jar, posted 04-05-2012 12:41 PM Straggler has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 367 of 432 (658493)
04-05-2012 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by Straggler
04-05-2012 12:29 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
I note that you continue to take my quotes out of context and that you continue to use emotive terms and that's fine if it makes you happy.

However I wish you would point out where I ever used the term disdain.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Straggler, posted 04-05-2012 12:29 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by Straggler, posted 04-05-2012 12:55 PM jar has responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 71 days)
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 368 of 432 (658496)
04-05-2012 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by jar
04-05-2012 12:41 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
jar writes:

I note that you continue to take my quotes out of context and that you continue to use emotive terms and that's fine if it makes you happy.

Oh come now jar - You are more than happy to dish it out when it suits you.

If you feel misrepresented why not explicitly just tell us whether or not some impossible-to evidence notions are more worthy of consideration than others and if so on what basis?

It's a simple question.

jar writes:

However I wish you would point out where I ever used the term disdain.

Here at EvC you regularly treat with disdain the claims of those who put forward their own brand of impossible-to-evidence nonsense. You do it all the time.

More relevantly here - Are you suggesting that the impossible-to-evidence scenario put forward in this thread (namely that all evidence has been falsely implanted) is worthy of anything less than disdain?

Because you seemed to treat it pretty disdainfully at the time...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by jar, posted 04-05-2012 12:41 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by jar, posted 04-05-2012 2:05 PM Straggler has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 369 of 432 (658503)
04-05-2012 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 368 by Straggler
04-05-2012 12:55 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Had I thought something was worthy of disdain I would have used the word disdain.

Again, we were discussing a particular scenario, that of being on a jury.

My comments were made solely within the context of acting as a juror.

Your question is simply impossible to answer except within a specific and specified context and I have answered that repeatedly.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Straggler, posted 04-05-2012 12:55 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by Straggler, posted 04-05-2012 2:10 PM jar has responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 71 days)
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 370 of 432 (658506)
04-05-2012 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by jar
04-05-2012 2:05 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
jar writes:

Your question is simply impossible to answer except within a specific and specified context and I have answered that repeatedly.

To be fair it's not so much my question as your own....

And you haven't answered it at all.

jar writes:

If it is impossible to get the evidence why should it EVER be considered?

In what context should that which is impossible-to -evidence EVER be considered?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by jar, posted 04-05-2012 2:05 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by jar, posted 04-05-2012 2:12 PM Straggler has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 371 of 432 (658507)
04-05-2012 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by Straggler
04-05-2012 2:10 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Again, that has been covered.

When it is a personal belief. It is called Faith as I have said before in this thread.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by Straggler, posted 04-05-2012 2:10 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by Straggler, posted 04-05-2012 2:16 PM jar has responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 71 days)
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 372 of 432 (658510)
04-05-2012 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by jar
04-05-2012 2:12 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
So in the absence of faith there is no reason to consider any impossible-to evidence notion over any other?

Your notion of GOD is no more worthy or my faithless consideration than the equally impossible-to-evidence notion that everything I experience has been falsely and undetectably planted by unknowable beings?

Right?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by jar, posted 04-05-2012 2:12 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by jar, posted 04-05-2012 2:29 PM Straggler has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 373 of 432 (658513)
04-05-2012 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by Straggler
04-05-2012 2:16 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Well, I have never said that any of my personal beliefs are "worthy of your consideration" that I know of.

In fact I have said throughout this thread that in the case of being on a jury even I should disregard my personal beliefs and address only the evidence presented, so again I am at a loss just what you need me to say?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by Straggler, posted 04-05-2012 2:16 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by Straggler, posted 04-05-2012 2:38 PM jar has responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 71 days)
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 374 of 432 (658514)
04-05-2012 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 373 by jar
04-05-2012 2:29 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
jar writes:

Well, I have never said that any of my personal beliefs are "worthy of your consideration" that I know of.

I honestly don't care what you personally believe. Your focus on that is simply a method of evading my more generic question:

In the absence of faith is there any reason to consider any impossible-to-evidence notion over any other?

This leads to the specific question (where your personal beliefs are nothing more than an incidental example):

Is your notion of GOD more worthy or my faithless consideration than the equally impossible-to-evidence notion that everything I experience has been falsely and undetectably planted by unknowable beings?

jar writes:

In fact I have said throughout this thread that in the case of being on a jury even I should disregard my personal beliefs and address only the evidence presented, so again I am at a loss just what you need me to say?

I want you to answer simple questions honestly and explicitly without your usual recourse to "It's my belief, it's my belief, you can't tell me what to believe" (to paraphrase) whenever you are confronted with difficult questions about the relative validity of equally un-evidenced notions.

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by jar, posted 04-05-2012 2:29 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by jar, posted 04-05-2012 2:47 PM Straggler has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 375 of 432 (658515)
04-05-2012 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by Straggler
04-05-2012 2:38 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Your personal beliefs are solely your business and I have never tried to tell you what you should find worthy of your consideration.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by Straggler, posted 04-05-2012 2:38 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by Straggler, posted 04-05-2012 2:54 PM jar has responded

  
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