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Author Topic:   The Three Kinds of Creationists
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 406 of 432 (658915)
04-10-2012 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 404 by hooah212002
04-10-2012 9:24 PM


Re: The Fool
Goes to show who's really making a fool of themselves.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by hooah212002, posted 04-10-2012 9:24 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 407 of 432 (658917)
04-10-2012 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by jar
04-10-2012 9:26 PM


Re: The Knowledgeable Creationist
jar writes:

Except TrueCreation is no longer a Creationist and has not been since before Dr. Dino started getting free room and board.

Which goes to show that, though he was savvy to scientific rhetoric, he was not knowledgeable enough to cite the evidence for Biblical creationism, such as fulfilled Biblical prophecies nor correlate and corroborate historical and other data pertinent to Biblical apologetics.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by jar, posted 04-10-2012 9:26 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by jar, posted 04-10-2012 10:20 PM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31462
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 408 of 432 (658918)
04-10-2012 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by Buzsaw
04-10-2012 10:09 PM


Re: The Knowledgeable Creationist
If that is the case then here is your opportunity to provide support for evidence for Biblical creationism and explain how crap like "fulfilled Biblical prophecies nor correlate and corroborate historical and other data pertinent to Biblical apologetics" can possibly offer any support for Creationism?

Please do provide links to that evidence or any "fulfilled Biblical prophecies nor correlate and corroborate historical and other data" that you think exists.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by Buzsaw, posted 04-10-2012 10:09 PM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3768
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 409 of 432 (658921)
04-11-2012 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 401 by Percy
04-10-2012 8:54 PM


Re: The Knowledgeable Creationist
Over the years, I've formed an opinion about honest creationists, that they do not last long, because they either withdraw from discussion upon learning that their position has problems or they eventually give up on creationism and sometimes even join the other side. My first impulse was to state the same opinion of knowledgeable creationists -- and for the most part the same does apply -- but upon reflection I see there's more involved.

We can say that there are two kinds of knowledgeable creationists: honest ones and dishonest one. OK, we could talk about a third kind who is severely delusional, but I would tend to lump those with the dishonest ones. Also, by "creationist", I mean those of the "creation science" persuasion rather than anyone who believes in Divine Creation, such as extremely effective anti-creationist and self-described creationist (ie, believer in Divine Creation, being a practicing Roman Catholic) Dr. Ken Miller.

An honest knowledgeable creationist will not last long on forums such as this, because the problems with his position and arguments will very quickly become apparent to him and he will need to deal with them. Whichever path he ends up taking, he will most likely retreat from forum participation since he cannot in good conscience continue to argue for things that he knows are wrong. In rare cases, he might continue to participate in order to work things out in his own mind, but I would not expect that to continue for very long.

A dishonest knowledgeable creationist would also not be expected to participate on this forum. Examples are most leading creationists, such as Hovind, Gish, Morris, etc, plus many highly active local creationists. Although highly knowledgeable, they remain dedicated to perverting that knowledge in service to their god (arguably the Great Deceiver, but since I'm an atheist, I don't believe in that Christian god either). The reason why we will not see them here is that they know from long and bitter experience that their claims are false and that in a fair discussion they have no hope of success -- eg, they will push ardently for a creationist-style verbal circus debate while at the same time absolutely refuse to engage in an on-line written debate where their opponents have time to research their claims and the audience can see exactly what claims they're making and be able to check on those claims. Also, they know that they must avoid knowledgeable opponents like the plague; eg, a local activist will bully and mock an opponent mercilessly, until he suddenly discovers that that opponent is knowledgeable, whereupon he immediately starts playing super-nice and tries to disengage as quickly as possible.

So neither kind of knowledgeable creationist can be expected to last here long. OK, that "third" kind, the highly delusional knowledgeable creationist, may stick it out longer because he's just simply, due to his delusion, clueless of the situation. But how long can he keep that up?

So all that leaves us with are the creationists who are not knowledgeable, who don't know what they're talking about. Protected by their ignorance, they can endure.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by Percy, posted 04-10-2012 8:54 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by foreveryoung, posted 04-11-2012 2:49 PM dwise1 has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 410 of 432 (658944)
04-11-2012 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 348 by Perdition
04-04-2012 3:05 PM


Well this is a week old, but whatever:

If you suppose or assume that god has tampered with the evidence,

The supposition wasn't that he has, it was that he could.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Perdition, posted 04-04-2012 3:05 PM Perdition has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 411 of 432 (658948)
04-11-2012 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 387 by bridgebuilder
04-07-2012 2:38 PM


Re: A possible point for prayer
Catholic Scientist writes:

Perhaps. Isn't that kinda childish, though? Is like when I make my dog sit while I'm dangling the treat in front of her...
And if god knows everything, then he already knew that I wasn't going to ask for it before I didn't

Sorry for not responding sooner, but I don't think it is childish. If God makes certain laws, and we accept the premise that God is perfect, then he would not hypocritically disobey the laws he designed. If free will is one of his laws/principles, then he would not intervene in an individual's life unless a request for divine intervention was made.

That's a decent explanation, thanks. There's a bit of an issue with God's perfection, and complete knowledge, and us having Free Will. Too, like I said, if he already knows that you want him to intervene, then its kinda silly to make you do the dance first. Ya know?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 412 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-11-2012 1:11 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 412 of 432 (658977)
04-11-2012 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 411 by New Cat's Eye
04-11-2012 10:10 AM


Re: A possible point for prayer
That's a decent explanation, thanks.

But see my post #389. That may be a "decent explanation" for why a God neglects his children, but it is worthless as an explanation for why the biblegod does so, because the Bible is all about how the biblegod righteously overrides our merely human and sinful wishes; if the Bible has any central theme, it is that "Man proposes, but God disposes", in the words of the old cliche.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-11-2012 10:10 AM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 30 days)
Posts: 920
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 413 of 432 (658984)
04-11-2012 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 409 by dwise1
04-11-2012 1:47 AM


Re: The Knowledgeable Creationist
Over the years, I've formed an opinion about honest creationists, that they do not last long, because they either withdraw from discussion upon learning that their position has problems or they eventually give up on creationism and sometimes even join the other side. My first impulse was to state the same opinion of knowledgeable creationists -- and for the most part the same does apply -- but upon reflection I see there's more involved.

We can say that there are two kinds of knowledgeable creationists: honest ones and dishonest one. OK, we could talk about a third kind who is severely delusional, but I would tend to lump those with the dishonest ones. Also, by "creationist", I mean those of the "creation science" persuasion rather than anyone who believes in Divine Creation, such as extremely effective anti-creationist and self-described creationist (ie, believer in Divine Creation, being a practicing Roman Catholic) Dr. Ken Miller.

An honest knowledgeable creationist will not last long on forums such as this, because the problems with his position and arguments will very quickly become apparent to him and he will need to deal with them. Whichever path he ends up taking, he will most likely retreat from forum participation since he cannot in good conscience continue to argue for things that he knows are wrong. In rare cases, he might continue to participate in order to work things out in his own mind, but I would not expect that to continue for very long.

A dishonest knowledgeable creationist would also not be expected to participate on this forum. Examples are most leading creationists, such as Hovind, Gish, Morris, etc, plus many highly active local creationists. Although highly knowledgeable, they remain dedicated to perverting that knowledge in service to their god (arguably the Great Deceiver, but since I'm an atheist, I don't believe in that Christian god either). The reason why we will not see them here is that they know from long and bitter experience that their claims are false and that in a fair discussion they have no hope of success -- eg, they will push ardently for a creationist-style verbal circus debate while at the same time absolutely refuse to engage in an on-line written debate where their opponents have time to research their claims and the audience can see exactly what claims they're making and be able to check on those claims. Also, they know that they must avoid knowledgeable opponents like the plague; eg, a local activist will bully and mock an opponent mercilessly, until he suddenly discovers that that opponent is knowledgeable, whereupon he immediately starts playing super-nice and tries to disengage as quickly as possible.

So neither kind of knowledgeable creationist can be expected to last here long. OK, that "third" kind, the highly delusional knowledgeable creationist, may stick it out longer because he's just simply, due to his delusion, clueless of the situation. But how long can he keep that up?

So all that leaves us with are the creationists who are not knowledgeable, who don't know what they're talking about. Protected by their ignorance, they can endure.

What a load of crap but typical of the attitude here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by dwise1, posted 04-11-2012 1:47 AM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by 1.61803, posted 04-11-2012 3:12 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded
 Message 415 by dwise1, posted 04-11-2012 3:17 PM foreveryoung has responded
 Message 416 by Taq, posted 04-11-2012 3:37 PM foreveryoung has responded
 Message 417 by jar, posted 04-11-2012 3:50 PM foreveryoung has responded
 Message 429 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-13-2012 1:57 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2919
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 414 of 432 (658985)
04-11-2012 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 413 by foreveryoung
04-11-2012 2:49 PM


Re: The Knowledgeable Creationist
"Me thinks thou dost protest to much."

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by foreveryoung, posted 04-11-2012 2:49 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3768
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


(3)
Message 415 of 432 (658986)
04-11-2012 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 413 by foreveryoung
04-11-2012 2:49 PM


Re: The Knowledgeable Creationist
Projecting again, I see.

And your continued presence here supports my last paragraph:

DWise1 writes:

So all that leaves us with are the creationists who are not knowledgeable, who don't know what they're talking about. Protected by their ignorance, they can endure.

I have been studying "creation science" since 1981 and been involved in on-line discussion since circa 1987, having cut my teeth, so to speak, on CompuServe; a number of my webpages started as essays I had posted on CompuServe. I have observed much in those years, which has shaped my "attitude" and which I just shared. Including the observation that "evolutionists" last much longer than creationists do, because 1) the evidence is on our side and 2) unlike creationists, we do not need to fear knowledge of nor thinking about science, evolution, religion, etc.

Now, if you happen to have some specific comments to make about specific points in what I had written, then do please present them. If instead you just want to complain about it without even trying to think, then you have already given us all the information we need about you and your own attitude, which is sadly typical.

Edited by dwise1, : Last two paragraphs

Edited by dwise1, : ... and the horse you rode in on!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by foreveryoung, posted 04-11-2012 2:49 PM foreveryoung has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by foreveryoung, posted 04-12-2012 11:33 PM dwise1 has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 8087
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 416 of 432 (658992)
04-11-2012 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 413 by foreveryoung
04-11-2012 2:49 PM


Re: The Knowledgeable Creationist
What a load of crap but typical of the attitude here.

Pearls before swine.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by foreveryoung, posted 04-11-2012 2:49 PM foreveryoung has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by foreveryoung, posted 04-12-2012 11:31 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31462
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 417 of 432 (658995)
04-11-2012 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 413 by foreveryoung
04-11-2012 2:49 PM


Re: The Knowledgeable Creationist
As a Christian, I need to ask you what it is in dwise1's post that you consider "crap"?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by foreveryoung, posted 04-11-2012 2:49 PM foreveryoung has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by foreveryoung, posted 04-12-2012 11:29 PM jar has responded

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 1990 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 418 of 432 (659009)
04-11-2012 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 402 by Buzsaw
04-10-2012 9:03 PM


Re: Strawman Posts
Buz, I've looked over Percy's messages and I see no attempt to moderate you. Can you either point out the offending message, quote the offending text here or stop making a claim you can't support?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Buzsaw, posted 04-10-2012 9:03 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 30 days)
Posts: 920
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 419 of 432 (659144)
04-12-2012 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 417 by jar
04-11-2012 3:50 PM


Re: The Knowledgeable Creationist
The whole thing and you're no Christian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by jar, posted 04-11-2012 3:50 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by jar, posted 04-13-2012 11:00 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 30 days)
Posts: 920
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 420 of 432 (659145)
04-12-2012 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 416 by Taq
04-11-2012 3:37 PM


Re: The Knowledgeable Creationist
Pearls before swine.

Shove it up your ass.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by Taq, posted 04-11-2012 3:37 PM Taq has not yet responded

    
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