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Author Topic:   Religion - genuine belief or educated to believe
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 13 of 33 (510292)
05-29-2009 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by eightace148
05-17-2009 4:48 PM


Bible vs. Honest Reality
eightace148 writes:
Is a religious belief a choice or simply tought as the right thing to think?
That entirely depends on what you think is right.
If you think that the Bible contains the most important values for discovering new ideas, then I would guess that you would think that religious belief is simply the right thing to think, all the time.
If you think that truth and honesty are the most important values when discoverying new ideas... then you would likely think that religious belief is a choice that is sometimes indoctrinated from adults onto their children.
What's a higher priority? The Bible or truth and honesty?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by eightace148, posted 05-17-2009 4:48 PM eightace148 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Perdition, posted 05-29-2009 3:34 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 15 of 33 (510482)
05-31-2009 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Perdition
05-29-2009 3:34 PM


Re: Bible vs. Honest Reality
Perdition writes:
Would one believe the Bible contains the most important values if one hadn't been taught that from the beginning?
There are a lot of people in this world. I'd be surprised if "being taught that from the beginning" was the only way to come to believe that the Bible contains the most important values.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Perdition, posted 05-29-2009 3:34 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Perdition, posted 06-01-2009 11:26 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 21 of 33 (510762)
06-03-2009 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Peg
06-01-2009 11:55 PM


The truth
Peg writes:
They (teachings, especially religious teachings) are not all the same and they do not all inspire faith.
bluescat writes:
So who decides which are inspired and which are crap?
you do
So the varying level of faith that is inspired is entirely subjective?
That means that that faith is no more (or less) important than my feeling for what ice-cream I prefer.
Are you sure you wanted to proclaim that the path of religious faith is as useless for finding truth and answers as the path of finding your favourite colour? That the best it can do is make you feel better... no more or less than any other subjective fancy?
I agree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Peg, posted 06-01-2009 11:55 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Peg, posted 06-04-2009 3:15 AM Stile has replied
 Message 24 by onifre, posted 06-05-2009 12:49 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 23 of 33 (510853)
06-04-2009 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Peg
06-04-2009 3:15 AM


Re: The truth
Peg writes:
how do you define faith?
In general, I use the basic, simple definition for Faith: "A personal basis to think a certain something is part of reality without any validated information to actually point in that direction." But I didn't mean that specific definition here.
Here, I was going from how you were using the term, I was more taking it as a catch-all word for describing the religious experience as a whole. Since you seemed to be focusing on "religious teachings" and using the word faith to mean "whatever makes you feel that those religious teachings are correct."

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Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 31 of 33 (513134)
06-25-2009 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Teapots&unicorns
06-24-2009 6:59 PM


Re: The truth
Teapots&unicorns writes:
However, in their own minds, it is an objective decision.
Bottom line, there is a difference in perceptional subjectivity and objectivity and real subjectivity and objectivity.
There is no such thing as "perceptional objectivity."
You are correct that when someone says they like chocolate ice-cream, then it is an objective fact (if they're not lying) that the person likes chocolate ice-cream at that time. However, this is not "perceptual objectivity".
The word 'objective' means "independent of the observer."
"Prefering chocolate over vanilla" is subjective because not all people prefer chocolate over vanilla.
"I like chocolate ice-cream," if I'm not lying, is objective because you observe my claim as much as onifre or anyone else does.
"Prefering God over Allah" is subjective. It's a preference.
"God exists" is a claim to reality. However, not all observers agree. Therefore it cannot be an objective claim, in any sense of the word "objective."
(There is always the chance that you are right and that dog crap is actually very appetizing...)
I know you were joking... but I'm going to use this statement to clarify objectivity/subjectivity a bit more:
"Appetizing" is a subjective concept, it is different for everyone.
It is impossible for "the dog crap" to be universally objectively appetizing (or objectively unappetizing, for that matter).
It is possible for "the dog crap" to be objectively appetizing for onifre (sorry dude... all in the name of clarity! )
It is possible for "the dog crap" to be objectively unappetizing for Stile.
As for your friends who belive in God:
However, even though I know that both their processes and conclusions may be wrong, that does not change the fact that, at least in their eyes, they have reached the "truth" through faith/objectivity (since their are incompatible)
The fact that you used the phrase "in their eyes" means that it is impossible for whatever-you're-talking-about to be objective. Such a phrase means that the conclusion depends on their (the observer's) thoughts and therefore is not objective by definition.
They certainly can come to conclusions that they believe are true from some objective observations. But if their conclusions are not independent of the observer, then their conclusions are not objective.
Objective observations do not necessarily lead to objective conclusions. The entire point of the scientific method is to ensure (as much as humanly possible) that we get objective conclusions from objective observations.
Example:
Objective observation: Rainbows are a bunch of colours seen in the sky.
Subjective conclusion: Rainbows are from God.
Subjective conclusion: Rainbows are from Odin.
Subjective conclusion: Rainbows are from my dad.
Objective conclusion: Rainbows are from sunlight refracting through raindrops.
I can even say that "Rainbows are from God" is objective. But that doesn't make it objective, that just makes me wrong. The same with your friends, they can say "God exists" is reached through objectivity, but they are wrong.
"God exists" is a subjective conclusion that may or may not be partially based on objective observations.
Anything "reached through objectivity" must be independent of all observers. Otherwise the claim is simply incorrect by definition of the word 'objective.'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 06-24-2009 6:59 PM Teapots&unicorns has seen this message but not replied

  
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