Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,353 Year: 3,610/9,624 Month: 481/974 Week: 94/276 Day: 22/23 Hour: 0/0


EvC Forum ⇒ Social and Religious Issues ⇒ Faith and Belief ⇒

Miracles and their Effect of Faith

Thread ▼ Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Miracles and their Effect of Faith
ringo
Member (Idle past 431 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005

Normal Thread Display
Message 9 of 39 (402124)
05-24-2007 2:36 PM 		Reply to: Message 7 by Tusko
05-24-2007 1:49 PM

Tusko writes:
​
... if God wants miracles to be correctly interpreted and taken seriously, then he has the power to 'make it so'.
​
What would the "correct interpretation" be? Is the point of a miracle to brag about how great God is or to help somebody out? Is it necessary to have a big fanfare for every miracle?
​
... you have to find an explanation for why they got some, and none of the subsequent people really got anything impressive at all.
​
Is feeding five thousand people more "impressive" than feeding one?
​
What if the Red sea was just too muddy to cross? Would it be more "impressive" if it dried up at the right moment or if the water piled up a hundred feet?
​
Do you think maybe the "impressive" part is the descriptions of the miracles and not the miracles themselves?
​
... if faith without evidence is really such a virtue....
​
It isn't.
​
That's just an excuse that lazy Christians use.
​
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Tusko, posted 05-24-2007 1:49 PM Tusko has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Tusko, posted 05-24-2007 3:03 PM ringo has replied
  
ringo
Member (Idle past 431 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005

Normal Thread Display
Message 13 of 39 (402135)
05-24-2007 3:23 PM 		Reply to: Message 11 by Tusko
05-24-2007 3:03 PM

Tusko writes:
​
For the purposes of this thread I'm thinking about miracles from a particular angle: as God's supernatural interventions that bring forth or to galvanise belief in said deity.
​
That makes no sense at all. If God's purpose was to "galvanise belief" in Him, all He'd have to do is show up once in a while and let us bask in His glory. If your contention is correct - that miracles are a hit-and-miss affair - then His motivation is clearly not to reinforce His existence.
​
... because I wasn't around in the early first century to see some other cool miracles, then I'm not really in much of a position to believe.
​
The thing is, we've seen stuff that's a lot cooler than the events depicted in the Bible. We've seen men walk on the moon, for @#$% sake. Why would a barbecue for 5000 impress you more?
​
So the question is - if you do happen to be someone who believes that these miracles happened in the first century CE, what kind of rationalisations can you offer to explain why these kind of flashy, faith-provoking miracles aren't happening any more.
​
Sorry, I was trying to give a rational answer, not a rationalized one.
​
The rational answer is that the premise is false.
​
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Tusko, posted 05-24-2007 3:03 PM Tusko has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Tusko, posted 05-24-2007 4:06 PM ringo has replied
  
ringo
Member (Idle past 431 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005

Normal Thread Display
Message 16 of 39 (402139)
05-24-2007 4:59 PM 		Reply to: Message 15 by Tusko
05-24-2007 4:06 PM

Tusko writes:
​
By the way: what do you think miracles are for if they aren't to impress (and implicitly effect belief)?
​
Miracles are God's way of doing things, not God's way of proselytizing.
​
If somebody needs feeding, we can do it or God can do it through us or God can wave his magic wand. I think you're exaggerating the significance and the frequency of the wand-waving.
​
If you believe they actually happened then you can't escape the fact that they would have impressed the hell out of a load of people at the time....
​
So, why do you jump to the conclusion that impressing the hell out of people was the reason for the miracles? Isn't that a bit like saying that Hollywood makes movies to help the popcorn industry?
​
... God being a canny fellow would have known this.
​
Steven Spielberg, being a canny fellow too, might invest in popcorn.
​
You might also think that the bloke who was doing these miraculous things should probably be listened to.
​
Not necessarily. There were probably a lot of blokes wandering around pulling rabbits out of turbans and sawing ladies in half.
​
For the most part, the spectacle of Jesus' miracles was secondary to the practical effect. The good that He did was probably what led people to accept His philosophy - not the fireworks.
​
... I assume if you are a Christian who believes the accounts, you believe there were at least some - came to the Christian faith in a very different way from anyone else since.
​
People "come to the Christian faith" in a lot of different ways. Some people like the hymns, some people like stained glass or incense. Some people like to see the virgin Mary in every grease stain.
​
None of that has anything to do with what the Christian faith is.
​
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Tusko, posted 05-24-2007 4:06 PM Tusko has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Tusko, posted 05-25-2007 6:01 AM ringo has replied
  
ringo
Member (Idle past 431 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005

Normal Thread Display
Message 27 of 39 (402222)
05-25-2007 9:01 AM 		Reply to: Message 22 by Tusko
05-25-2007 6:01 AM

Tusko writes:
​
... you are saying that there isn't necessarily any tension between someone today believing God doesn't do miracles now...
​
I don't think I've said anywhere that "God doesn't do miracles now". Just the opposite. I'm saying that you're exaggerating the Siegfried and Roy aspect of the Bible miracles. I'm saying that the vast majority of miracles then were as prosaic as the vast majority of miracles now. I'm saying that there is no "change" that needs explaining.
​
... because it prevents people making the free choice to believe....
​
God doesn't care if people believe. Why would He do miracles to "make" them believe?
​
... the often used rationalisation to explain God's much less hands on approach in the modern era ...
​
It's interesting that nobody has come forward in this thread with the so-called "often used rationalization".
​
... miracles do affect people in this way, and do force belief from them.
​
Maybe you need to show us in the Bible where that is true. Where did miracles "force belief"?
​
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Tusko, posted 05-25-2007 6:01 AM Tusko has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Tusko, posted 05-25-2007 9:54 AM ringo has replied
 Message 31 by Taz, posted 05-25-2007 11:39 AM ringo has replied
  
ringo
Member (Idle past 431 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005

Normal Thread Display
Message 30 of 39 (402246)
05-25-2007 11:33 AM 		Reply to: Message 28 by Tusko
05-25-2007 9:54 AM

Tusko writes:
​
I'm starting to think that if you've never heard it used before I must either have misunderstood someone at some point or I must have dreamt it.
​
I've heard the argument before, but only from "low-level" Christians who don't think things through.
​
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Tusko, posted 05-25-2007 9:54 AM Tusko has not replied
  
ringo
Member (Idle past 431 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005

Normal Thread Display
Message 34 of 39 (402268)
05-25-2007 1:04 PM 		Reply to: Message 31 by Taz
05-25-2007 11:39 AM

Tazmanian Devil writes:
​
After this, the people of Israel was "forced" to believe in god rather than Baal.
​
Good one.
​
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Taz, posted 05-25-2007 11:39 AM Taz has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Taz, posted 05-25-2007 1:19 PM ringo has replied
  
ringo
Member (Idle past 431 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005

Normal Thread Display
Message 37 of 39 (402279)
05-25-2007 2:11 PM 		Reply to: Message 36 by Taz
05-25-2007 1:19 PM

Tazmanian Devil writes:
​
I'm dumbfounded... no argument from you?
​
I really did try to find a way to weasel out.
​
I just wanted to also point out that that is an example of a miracle for the sole purpose of making people believe in god.
​
Did I say that "never" happens? If so, oops. I do get a bit polar sometimes.
​
To put it more diplomatically: The purpose of miracles is (generally) not to impress or convert. Sometimes people (possibly including Elijah) misconstrue them that way.
​
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Taz, posted 05-25-2007 1:19 PM Taz has not replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by anastasia, posted 05-28-2007 12:30 AM ringo has not replied
  
Date format: mm-dd-yyyy
Timezone: ET (US)
  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024