Why God uses faith

just lightening the mood.. thats allcarry onThis message has been edited by veiledvirtue, 02-28-2006 10:38 PM

just as jar said. i'd figure out if it really did happen first (was he really dead). then how. and if there is no explanation, and i'm not neurologically distant, then sure, i'd be thrilled. but then i know full well that i was granted 15 extra months i should not have had with my father.just as asgara said, you are making great assumptions about my beliefs and you have not been here long enough to know any of them. faith has and she still has no idea.i am a modern day doubting thomas; and just like thomas i am well loved and favored by my god... despite the vitriol slung at me by his followers.This message has been edited by brennakimi, 03-01-2006 12:49 AM

Of course. I believe this is disingenuous of you with respect to the Thomas passage as Jesus didn't call Thomas blessed but did call those blessed who had believed exactly the same thing Thomas had been told, but without needing to see it. Nobody is condemning "the empirical method of reaching belief" but certainly showing that those who demand it will be forever frustrated.Let me see if I can make this point clearer. The events of Jesus' life were one-time events. They cannot be replicated. When it comes to the resurrection those not in a position to have empirical proof of it MUST believe (or disbelieve) the reports of it. We have no choice.What proof could be given of those same events now? If you saw a miracle of some sort, would that prove that Jesus had risen from the dead? No. You weren't there to witness the events, the crucifixion. You weren't there to appreciate the implications of the empty tomb. You HAVE to trust what those who did witness it say about it.That is the same situation for us as it was for those in that time who for one reason or another didn't get to see Jesus at any point in His life and death, or those who witnessed some of it but not the risen Jesus. The rich man in Hades wanted Jesus to send someone from the dead to warn his still-living brothers away from his own fate. Jesus answered that since they wouldn't believe Moses they wouldn't believe such a witness from the dead either. It's exactly the same point as the Thomas point.ABE: Sorry, not Jesus, Abraham. Luke 16:19-31.Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.This message has been edited by Faith, 03-01-2006 01:29 AMThis message has been edited by Faith, 03-01-2006 01:32 AM

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you are making great assumptions about my beliefs

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your assuming im making assumptions
these are called questions

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you have not been here long enough to know any of them.

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im a quick learner.it doesnt take me long to look beyond the mustache

But the resurrection is not important. Faith involves believing in the message, not just the messenger. If you don't live the message, your "faith" in the messenger is meaningless.

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Well, the subject of our discussion happens to be limited at the moment to Thomas' refusing to believe Jesus had risen from the dead unless he saw the physical proof of it. And far from it not being important, scripture tells us that we MUST believe He rose from the dead.Of course, there's much more to the Christian life that follows from that. We must also believe many other things and live it all too.This message has been edited by Faith, 03-01-2006 02:35 AM

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I believe this is disingenuous of you with respect to the Thomas passage as Jesus didn't call Thomas blessed but did call those blessed who had believed exactly the same thing Thomas had been told, but without needing to see it.

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I didn't say he was, but the text also doesn't say he was inferior. He was not considered better or worse for it.

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Nobody is condemning "the empirical method of reaching belief" but certainly showing that those who demand it will be forever frustrated.

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Yes, if they are wanting to see the resurrection again. I don't know that anyone is expecting an instant replay.

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Let me see if I can make this point clearer. The events of Jesus' life were one-time events. They cannot be replicated. When it comes to the resurrection those not in a position to have empirical proof of it MUST believe (or disbelieve) the reports of it. We have no choice. ...

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Agreed. It was a one time performance.But, that doesn't negate research. If Brenna looks through ancient records and archeology reports and comes to the conclusion that the resurrection happened and believes, her belief is no different than anyone elses. If you notice in this scenerio, she still didn't see the risen Christ. She would still be blessed.So since there won't be an encore performance of Jesus' life, anyone who comes to believe by whatever means, will be blessed, because no one can get the visual that Thomas and the disciples did.

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The rich man in Hades wanted Jesus to send someone from the dead to warn his still-living brothers away from his own fate. ...

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Yes I read the parable. Remember parables are stories to make a point, not an actual happening.The rich man was in trouble because of his treatment of the poor man. The story doesn't state that either man was good or bad. The emphasis was on helping the poor and where these guidelines are provided.Taken literally the story doesn't reflect what Moses taught.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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just curious.. hypothetically speaking. if you were a modern day doubting thomas and witnessed something humanly impossible...say..somebody rising out of a grave.. would it make you a believer? or would you still doubt out of fear?

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Your scenerios need work.If someone witnessed something then they are a witness and would not be in the position of Thomas.To be in Thomas' position someone would have to tell you that something humanly impossible happened and then you would ask for it to happen again. When it happened again, they you would believe that it happened, just as Thomas believed that Jesus had risen.Your hypothetical question served no purpose.This message has been edited by purpledawn, 03-01-2006 07:32 AM

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

But, it seems to me, the message was the messanger. They concentrate on how he died (for them), rather than how he lived

I have recently come to the conclusion that i am incapable of having faith in that which i have no proof or evidence of . Now , according to God believers , God made me this way , therefore he condemned me to hell the moment i was born . Im sure there are many other people here like me who are incapable of believing without proof , so it seems God likes seeing his creations goto hell , or else he would either give us some visual proof of his existence or not make people incapable of believing .

but how can you trust those you don't know ? what have these witnesses done for you to gain your trust ?that's why we have to make this important distinction between trust and faith. Trust involves the known, Faith involves the unknown.Your God is claimed to be known and revealed, but still requires faith of you.Yet another contradiction of the Christian God.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Of course, but the New Testament has been given for this very purpose, to persuade her, and wanting other evidence, which may not exist, is just going to leave her as an unbeliever. At the very least Jesus was certainly telling us in the Thomas episode that we are to believe His witnesses. Yes, and the point is clear. The man is burning in Hades and doesn't want his brothers to suffer the same fate, and Jesus says they have Moses to warn them away from it, and wouldn't believe a witness from the dead anyway. It's quite clear. With the rich man burning in Hades, and the poor man comforted "in Abraham's bosom" you think this needs to be "stated?" Jesus is clearly saying that it does. Our job is to figure out what he meant, not argue with Him.

Been believable sincere writers. And since I believed them Jesus Himself has proved Himself worthy of my trust, answers prayer, guides me when I need it.This is the case with historical events. You either trust the witnesses or you don't. There is often no other evidence. Perhaps I only come to trust Him then after knowing Him a while, but it seems to me an artificial distinction in this context.

The subject of the thread is why God expects us to accept Him without empirical proof - i.e. without "revealing" Himself.What I am saying is that God does reveal Himself, through the lives of those who believe in Him. The faith that God requires of us is only faith in what we can detect woth our senses.Jesus told Thomas that thoise who didn't meet Him in person were blessed if they believed - but how could they believe? Through the witness of those who had met Him.Today, there is nobody left alive who has met Jesus in person. There are those who claim to have "met" Him spiritually - but the only way we can test the validity of their claim is by the witness of their lives. That's a whole other topic. For the purpose of this topic, the resurrection is irrelevant. What is important is the difference between living faith and empty professions of faith.Remember the Good Samaritan? It is possible to be a Christian witness without even being a Christian.

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Yes, "they" do, and that is a false message. Those who concentrate on His death are false Christians.

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