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Author Topic:   Free Will and Biblical Prophecy: Are They Mutually Exclusive?
Straggler
Member (Idle past 142 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 151 of 227 (495611)
01-23-2009 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Stile
01-23-2009 1:29 PM


Time Reversal - The Problem You Keep Avoiding
Stile writes:
But just by simply adding Odin's knowledge... General free will disappears? Why is that?
Straggler writes:
Is a timeline that contains a passively observing omnipotent being at one point the same as a timeline that does not contain such a being at any point?
Stile writes:
My answer to this questions is: Yes.
I would say that a timeline that contains a passively observing omnipotent being at any point, or even all points (or even no points), is the same as a timeline that does not contain such a being in the universe at all. My reasoning for this is that a being who, by definition, does not change anything at all... doesn't actually change anything at all.
Why is his observance from this perspective not a change?
How can a timeline that includes an omnipoptent passive observer at point A be the same as one that does not include a passive observer at point A?
Is their presence alone not a change? If not why not?
Anyway. To get back to demonstrating the real problem with your argument.......
STILE's POSITION
Stile writes:
Yes, I can.
The Carl shaped his own timeline as described above since Carl made all the decisions, freely, on his own, with absolutely no outside interference.
Isn't that what we both mean by "shaping his own timeline?"
However, given this set up, IF Odin can see the future, we result with the little conundrum that this scenario creates.
Carl shaped his own timeline.
Odin can see the future.
Odin knows what Carl is going to choose because Odin can see the future of the timeline that Carl shaped.
Carl will choose whatever it is that Odin can see that he ends up choosing.
With Odin's knowledge... there is no alternative for Carl, he is going to choose whatever it is that Odin can see that he ends up choosing. This choice, however, is made totally freely by Carl, with absolutely no outside interference of any kind as he shapes his own timeline.
With Odin's knowledge... there is no General free will (no alternatives), but there is free will In Principle (Carl makes all his decisions all by himself without any outside interference).
Without Odin's knowledge... we both agree there is no problem. No one can see Carl's future, and no one can identify what choice Carl freely decides.
Without Odin's knowledge we both agree that free will exists Generally and In Principle.
But just by simply adding Odin's knowledge... General free will disappears? Why is that?
For free-will to exist Carl’s choices must shape Carl’s timeline. Carl’s timeline must not shape Carl’s choices.
You have explicitly stated that this is your position. Agreed?
SCENARIO
Carl has a timeline.
At point A on this timeline Carl chooses to manage the water treatment plant.
At point B on this timeline Carl chooses whether to have steak, lobster or both for dinner.
At point C Carl decides to retire and buy a boat.
Point B = The present = Now
Therefore point A is in the past and point C is in the future.
Carl is at point B. Carl can see the past only.
Odin is at point B. Odin can see both Carl’s past and future.
Carl chooses to eat both lobster and steak for dinner. He goes on to lead a happy life that includes enjoying his boat as a retiree.
All OK so far?
REVERSE TIME - SAME FUTURE?
Odin reverses time. We are back to point B again.
Carl is about to choose to eat both lobster and steak for dinner when he is overcome with a random bout of paranoia. Why is his wife being so unusually damn nice? Why is she cooking him steak and lobster? Is she having an affair? Carl decides that he does not want dinner. He wants an argument with his wife.
Carl’s life is irrevocably changed. Or is it?
According to your version of free-will must reverse-time-Carl slavishly follow first-time-Carl’s timeline?
Or can reverse-time-Carl shape his own timeline? Thus making Odin's previous future view redundent. Does reverse-time-Carl have free-will? Or not?
Do reverse-time-Carl’s choices shape his timeline or does first-time-Carl’s timeline shape reverse-time-Carl’s choices? Does reverse-time-Carl have free-will? Or not?
Does either Carl really have free-will at point B?
How can Odin immutably know Carl's future choices if Carl has not made them yet? How can Odin see the future portion of Carl's timeline if this is shaped by choices Carl has never actually yet made?
If to answer this question you need to change Odin's perspective from that stated in the scenario (i.e. located at point B looking into Carl's future) please specify what Odin's perspective needs to be and why it is that you need to change Odin's perspective to answer this question?
What difference does Odin's perspective make?
Hopefully you are starting to see the problem here?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Stile, posted 01-23-2009 1:29 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Stile, posted 01-26-2009 2:04 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 142 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 152 of 227 (495615)
01-23-2009 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Stile
01-23-2009 1:35 PM


Re: Perspectives: An Explanation For Clarity.
The part about this that I don't understand is how we can call Odin "outside of time" when he can only view Carl's life as a whole after Carl has already lived it and made all of his decisions.
If Odin needs to wait until after... how is Odin outside of time?
If Odin does not need to wait until after... why is Odin unable to choose to view Carl's timeline in the manner of Perspective 2 (tunnel-like) at any time during Carl's life?
Odin can view Carl's timeline from any damn perspective he chooses. This is not in doubt. The question we need to consider is what efffect the perspective Odin chooses has on Carl's free-will.
If Odin is truly timeless and eternal and passively observing then he will see Carl's whole lifeline complete and static from "outside" of time.
There is no "before", "present" or "after". The timeline is complete if all of time is observed. Each point on the timeline is equally observable as any other. Like a piece of string on the floor.
If Odin needs to wait until after... how is Odin outside of time?
If Odin does not need to wait until after... why is Odin unable to choose to view Carl's timeline in the manner of Perspective 2 (tunnel-like) at any time during Carl's life?
After? What does "after" mean if you are seeing the sum total of reality as a wriggly shaped static, whole line?
If you look down at your piece of string which point is "before"? Which point is "after"? And which point is "now"?
Your question makes no sense unless you confine yourself (and Odin) to the perspective within Carl's timeline. Rather than one "outside" of Carl's timeline.
You need to be consistent between the two perspectives that you attribute Odin with. Or explain why they are the same.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Stile, posted 01-23-2009 1:35 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Stile, posted 01-26-2009 2:12 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2774 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 153 of 227 (495635)
01-23-2009 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Stile
01-23-2009 2:56 PM


Re: Railroad Plot
Hi, Stile.
Stile writes:
If Odin can only see "all possible futures", then Odin cannot actually see "the" future.
This is because there simply is no "the future": there are actually three of them. This is the point that I'm trying to make: Odin would see them all, because they all exist.
And, the ability to distinguish which of them would come to fruition would require a totally different type of insight.
-----
Stile writes:
Ah, but the problem lies in the fact that, in my arguement... this "storyline" that Carl is being "railroaded" down is only in such a direction because Carl makes all those decisions with absolutely no interference from anyone.
How can Carl "railroad" himself? He would have to never encounter a fork in the road at all: the option of getting off the railroad would have to never come up. If Carl has the ability, even as just a technicality, to change direction, then there are, by definition, at least two futures, both of which Odin would see.

I'm Bluejay.
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Stile, posted 01-23-2009 2:56 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Straggler, posted 01-24-2009 5:47 AM Blue Jay has replied
 Message 176 by Stile, posted 01-26-2009 2:24 PM Blue Jay has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 154 of 227 (495648)
01-23-2009 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Stile
01-23-2009 2:10 PM


Re: I'll show the example, then
Hi Stile,
Stile writes:
This is because there is no other alternative for Carl, he's going to choose #4.
Didn't you say that Carl's timeline was determined by his decisions?
Then if Odin knows the decision Carl made in advance, how can Odin interfere with Carl's decision regardless of what he does with the information?
He would have to personally interfere by making Carl do something against his will in order to remove free will.
As far as Odin is concerned Carl has already made that decision.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Stile, posted 01-23-2009 2:10 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 142 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 155 of 227 (495705)
01-24-2009 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by ICANT
01-20-2009 7:34 PM


God's Smart but Man Is Not
What Ahab will do has been foretold as an immutable truth.
If Ahab chooses to do other than that foretold the immutable truth will be untrue.
This is impossible.
Therefore Ahab must do as foretold. He has no choice or free-will regarding this matter.
This has nothing to do with God’s knowledge. This has everything to do with man’s knowledge.
Which part of this are you failing to understand?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by ICANT, posted 01-20-2009 7:34 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by ICANT, posted 01-24-2009 11:27 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 142 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 156 of 227 (495706)
01-24-2009 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by ICANT
01-20-2009 8:16 PM


Prophecy and Free Will - Mutually Exclusive
Jesus’s death has been foretold as an immutable truth.
If either Jesus or those that kill him choose to do other than that foretold the immutable truth will be untrue.
This is impossible.
Therefore both Jesus and those who kill him must do as foretold. They have no choice or free-will regarding this matter.
This has nothing to do with God’s knowledge. This has everything to do with man’s knowledge.
Which part of this are you failing to understand?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by ICANT, posted 01-20-2009 8:16 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 5035 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 157 of 227 (495733)
01-24-2009 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by ICANT
01-22-2009 10:55 PM


Re: Free Will
Hi ICANT
The point of my post was that what you claim is incorrect. You wishfully said:
He is not going to make you do something you don't choose to do.
He will not force you to do anything.
In particular you said that God will not force you to do anything, and my post pointed out that He forced Jonah to go to Nineveh against Jonah's wishes, Jonah even headed in the oppositie direction from Nineveh.
Therefore, this is anither example of the Bible contradicting what a believer wishes that God was like, but He isn't, the God of the Bible is an evil, bloodthirsty, idiot.
I don't have any free will.
Neither did Jonah.
I know.
The free will defence is just another in a very long series of very poor excuses for God's obvious hatred for the human race.
I am bought and paid for, I belong to God to do with as He see's fit.
Have some self-respect ICANT, it is just a story invented by the ancient imagination to explain the world around them, you really should not be taking the Bible seriously you know.
My only choice is to obey or suffer the consequences which is up to God.
That is so terribly sad.
Edited by Brian, : formatting

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by ICANT, posted 01-22-2009 10:55 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by ICANT, posted 01-24-2009 1:48 PM Brian has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 142 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 158 of 227 (495737)
01-24-2009 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Blue Jay
01-23-2009 6:14 PM


Stile's Circularity
In essence Stile's argument is circular.
Carl's timeline is shaped by Carl's choices.
Odin knows Carl's future choices because he knows the shape of Carl's whole timeline.
Odin knows the shape of Carl's whole timeline because he knows Carl's future choices.
This is obviously circular.
The very definition of Carl's lifeline as being made up of Carl's choices requires that the future portion, made up of Carl's as yet un-made choices, cannot exist.
I am trying to draw this circularity out of Stile himself but it is a complicated point, confused by terminology, differing perspectives and my own rather convulted attempts to get the point across.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Blue Jay, posted 01-23-2009 6:14 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Blue Jay, posted 01-24-2009 7:55 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 179 by Stile, posted 01-26-2009 3:33 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 142 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 159 of 227 (495740)
01-24-2009 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by ICANT
01-22-2009 10:55 AM


The ICANT Free-Will Challenge!!!
Sure I can understand how you can be confused.
You don't understand that God limits Himself when it comes to your free will.
He is not going to make you do something you don't choose to do.
He will not force you to do anything.
ICANT it is you who is confused.
An immutable prophecy regarding the future must come true.
Free-will cannot be exerted such that the immutably true prophecy is made to be untrue. That would be a contradiction in terms.
Thus an immutable prophecy must be obeyed by denying free-will.
Explain to me how this is not so?
He is not going to make you do something you don't choose to do.
God has immutably informed me by means of immutable prophecy that you are going to concede that you are wrong and confused in your next post.
Are you going to obey this immutable prophecy?
Or are you going to exert your free-will and disprove the immutability of God's prophecies?
The choice is yours. Or is it?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by ICANT, posted 01-22-2009 10:55 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by ICANT, posted 01-24-2009 11:55 AM Straggler has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 160 of 227 (495807)
01-24-2009 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Straggler
01-24-2009 1:49 AM


Re: God's Smart but Man Is Not
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
This has nothing to do with God's knowledge. This has everything to do with man's knowledge.
Please explain how Ahab knowing what was going to happen caused him to make the decision to go into battle.
He did not believe a thing Micaiah said.
In fact his mind was made up when he asked Jehoshaphat
would he join him in the battle.
Jehoshaphat is the one that asked for the prophets in the first place.
Jehoshaphat is the one that asked if there was any other prophets and Ahab mentioned Micaiah who hated him.
So please explain how God made Ahab do anything.
Straggler writes:
What Ahab will do has been foretold as an immutable truth.
I think maybe you are having a problem here.
Who said this is an immutable truth?
You say but God said it was going to happen so it had to happen.
But it did not have to happen at this particular time Ahab could have went home and lived and the people not lost the battle.
Doesn't mean it would not happen yet in Ahab's future.
Lets look at a case in point.
20:1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.
God said Hezekiah was going to die.
20:2 Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the LORD, saying,
The difference in Hezekiah and Ahab was that Hezekiah believed God.
20:3 I beseech thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.
Hezekiah asked for more time.
20:4 And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying,
God heard Hezekiah and complied.
20:5 Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the LORD.
20:6 And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.
Isaiah did not get very far before God told him to go back and tell Hezekiah he had 15 more years.
You say ah ha God lied.
Did he? Lets see.
The prophecy was for Hezekiah to set his house in order because he was going to die.
20:19 Then said Hezekiah unto Isaiah, Good is the word of the LORD which thou hast spoken. And he said, Is it not good, if peace and truth be in my days?
20:20 And the rest of the acts of Hezekiah, and all his might, and how he made a pool, and a conduit, and brought water into the city, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah?
20:21 And Hezekiah slept with his fathers: and Manasseh his son reigned in his stead.
He set his house in order as he states in verse 19, "Good is the word of the Lord which thou hast spoken." He accepted God's will as law.
He set his kingly house in order by doing something for the city.
He died.
Prophecy fulfilled.
Back to Ahab's prophecy.
Here is the prophecy again.
22:17 And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master: let them return every man to his house in peace.
If you notice no details are given no particular battle is described Ahab is not mentioned nor is Jehoshaphat.
The people were without a leader and scattered on the hills and went home.
This prophecy was fulfilled many times in the children of Israel's history.
So why did Ahab choose to fulfill it also.
Brian is ripping me about Jonah.
God said he was going to destroy Nineveh. Jonah wanted them destroyed so when God told him to go tell them to repent or He was going to destroy it Jonah rebelled and went the other way.
But when Jonah did get there and preach the people of Nineveh repented and God did not destroy Nineveh.
Prophecy failed.
Not so fast, later God destroyed Nineveh.
Prophecy fulfilled.
You are supposed to follow the evidence in Bible study just like you do in any study.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Straggler, posted 01-24-2009 1:49 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Straggler, posted 01-24-2009 11:39 AM ICANT has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 142 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 161 of 227 (495811)
01-24-2009 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by ICANT
01-24-2009 11:27 AM


Re: God's Smart but Man Is Not
Straggler writes:
What Ahab will do has been foretold as an immutable truth.
If Ahab chooses to do other than that foretold the immutable truth will be untrue.
This is impossible.
Therefore Ahab must do as foretold. He has no choice or free-will regarding this matter.
This has nothing to do with God’s knowledge. This has everything to do with man’s knowledge.
Please explain how Ahab knowing what was going to happen caused him to make the decision to go into battle.
If Ahab had chosen not to go into battle would it have made the immutable prophecy wrong?
If Ahab had chosen not to go into battle would it have made an immutable truth untrue?
If Ahab had chosen not to go into battle would it have made a liar of a God that cannot lie?
If none of these things are possible how can Ahab take any action that results in an immutable prophecy being false, an immutable truth being untrue or a God that cannot lie speak an untruth?
If Ahab cannot take any action that contradicts the prophecy how can he be said to have free-will regarding this action?
He cannot.
Ahab may think he made the decision freely. Ahab may think he had choice. I don't know. But in the face of immutable prophecy this could be but an illusion because there was no choice available as demonstrated above.
Which part of this do you not understand?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by ICANT, posted 01-24-2009 11:27 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by ICANT, posted 01-24-2009 2:03 PM Straggler has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 162 of 227 (495812)
01-24-2009 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by Straggler
01-24-2009 6:01 AM


Re: The ICANT Free-Will Challenge!!!
Hi Straggler,
Me think it is u who is cornfused.
Straggler writes:
Thus an immutable prophecy must be obeyed by denying free-will.
Why do you "believe" that free-will must be denied for an immutable prophecy to be fulfilled?
The announcement of a Prophecy is the fore-telling of an event as it happens according to the decisions made at the time of the event.
The problem is that the prophecy is made by someone seeing what decisions were made at the time of said event.
The foreknowledge of what did happen in the future in no way controlled what happened at the time of the event.
The event happened the same as it would had the prophecy not been told in advance of the event.
Straggler writes:
God has immutably informed me by means of immutable prophecy that you are going to concede that you are wrong and confused in your next post.
Are you going to obey this immutable prophecy?
Or are you going to exert your free-will and disprove the immutability of God's prophecies?
I will continue when I get through ROFLMAO.
OK I am back, almost busted a gut though.
You a self proclaimed atheist who does not believe in God had a conversation with God.
Why would I concede that I am wrong?
Should I concede I am wrong because you think you are right?
Just because God knows the decision you have made and will make concerning him and has determined where you are going to spend eternity has absolutely nothing to do with your ability to change your mind.
Just remember that whatever decision you make God knew that decision.
Anyway concerning your immutable prophecy I choose to do as Ahab and not believe a word of it and press on.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Straggler, posted 01-24-2009 6:01 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Straggler, posted 01-24-2009 12:09 PM ICANT has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 142 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 163 of 227 (495818)
01-24-2009 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by ICANT
01-24-2009 11:55 AM


Re: The ICANT Free-Will Challenge!!!
Straggler writes:
God has immutably informed me by means of immutable prophecy that you are going to concede that you are wrong and confused in your next post.
Are you going to obey this immutable prophecy?
Or are you going to exert your free-will and disprove the immutability of God's prophecies?
I will continue when I get through ROFLMAO.
OK I am back, almost busted a gut though.
So much for the immutability of God's prophecies! That guy is a charlatan!!!!!
Obviously we have no need to worry about the effect of immutable prophecies on free-will because God is apparently about as immutable as I am.
ICANT writes:
You a self proclaimed atheist who does not believe in God had a conversation with God.
I have seen the light. He has revealed himself to me. Oh ICANT it was wonderful. But he was still wrong.....
Why would I concede that I am wrong?
Because God "immutably" foretold that you would.
I won't be listening to him again though. Immutable? My arse!!
Should I concede I am wrong because you think you are right?
Apparently God's prophecies are not immutable after all.
Just because God knows the decision you have made and will make concerning him and has determined where you are going to spend eternity has absolutely nothing to do with your ability to change your mind.
Just remember that whatever decision you make God knew that decision.
Well he failed to foretell your decision accurately so I would be less confident in his fortune telling abilities if I were you.
Between you and me I think God has had a couple of lucky guesses in the past (that whole Ahab thing) but has burdened himself with expectation by promoting this immutabilty stuff. He should play it safe and stick to more vague predictions in the future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by ICANT, posted 01-24-2009 11:55 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by ICANT, posted 01-24-2009 1:22 PM Straggler has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 164 of 227 (495827)
01-24-2009 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Straggler
01-24-2009 12:09 PM


Re: The ICANT Free-Will Challenge!!!
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
I have seen the light.
I am sorry that flash of light blinded you instead of opening your eyes.
Straggler writes:
Between you and me I think God has had a couple of lucky guesses in the past (that whole Ahab thing) but has burdened himself with expectation by promoting this immutabilty stuff. He should play it safe and stick to more vague predictions in the future.
You made the statement "What Ahab will do has been foretold as an immutable truth."
I asked, who said that was an immutable truth?
Do you care to answer?
I also asked you, So why did Ahab choose to fulfill it also?
Do you care to answer?
Now Ahab's prophecy was general.
Hezekiah's was specific. But was delayed. Because he asked.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Straggler, posted 01-24-2009 12:09 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Straggler, posted 01-24-2009 1:58 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 165 of 227 (495830)
01-24-2009 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Brian
01-24-2009 5:29 AM


Re: Free Will
Hi Brian,
Brian writes:
He is not going to make you do something you don't choose to do.
I did not say God would not make ICANT do anything. God can do whatever He wants with ICANT I put that in His keeping when I was 9 years and 11 months old.
I said God will not make you, Modulous do anything against your will as I was talking to Modulous.
He will not make Brian believe in Him or do anything he does not want to do either.
He will allow Brian to believe in Him if Brian wants to believe.
But when it comes to ICANT and any other born again child of God we are His and we obey or suffer loss.
Brian writes:
I know.
The free will defence is just another in a very long series of very poor excuses for God's obvious hatred for the human race.
No you don't have a clue.
Brian writes:
Have some self-respect ICANT, it is just a story invented by the ancient imagination to explain the world around them, you really should not be taking the Bible seriously you know.
I do have self respect.
I do get flare ups of pride but when I do God reminds me I am His.
As far as taking the Bible too seriously I don't have to have the Bible as I have the Holy Spirit to lead me.
Brian writes:
My only choice is to obey or suffer the consequences which is up to God.
That is so terribly sad.
Don't feel sad for me.
Those consequences has made me the man I am today.
And I wouldn't take nothing for my journey now.
I'm sorry Brian but you just can't understand. I am sure there are some that can those are my brothers.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Brian, posted 01-24-2009 5:29 AM Brian has not replied

  
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