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Author Topic:   Religion: a survival mechanism?
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 77 of 81 (190740)
03-09-2005 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by joshua221
03-08-2005 10:25 AM


Re: The pharmacological science of a bout with spirits
I agree with Phatboy, although he is able to express himself a lot better than me.
I to was addicted to drugs, when younger. The drugs may have been different than phatboys, and the reasons different. But I can see how believing in God and drugs are completely different to each other. I have survived with drugs, without them, and with and without God. Doing or not doing one or the other, has nothing to do with my survival on this planet. I survive by working my little but off, and providing for my 5 kids.
Also from the OS parasomnium quotes schraf:
"However, let me qualify that by saying that logical thinking is not at all natural for humans. Human biases and thought errors and communal reinforcements are what enabeled us to survive early in our existence."
I can't see how this has changed at all in modern times. Everything is the same as it always was. The core principals, and morals remain the same, just the circumstance may have changed. What we claim as logical thinking can be only relative to the present.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by joshua221, posted 03-08-2005 10:25 AM joshua221 has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 81 (190826)
03-09-2005 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Phat
03-08-2005 3:26 PM


Re: Religion: Survival of the craziest?
Yeah, you're mos def right about drugs being a survival mechanism.
quote:
Survival is about knowing when to fight and when to surrender.
Yeah, in Farenheit 451 there was a great page dedicated to this. But it was more about human nature. "A time to build and a time to break down..." Not sure on the exact quote, but it's right. And what is interesting is, that I found a very similar quote written by solomon, I think it was in Song of Songs, or Psalms, Proverbs. But it's a timeless message. And you're exactly right.
quote:
To get back to answering your question, I was obviously never outside of myself. This is basically impossible, although some shamans claim to practice astral projection. I am skeptical as to what it is that they are REALLY going through.
Actually I was watching a show on the history channel, and there was a shaman, and his wife chanting beside a fire. I wanted so badly to know what they were saying. I still do want to know what these ancient civilizations' survivors say in prayer. I thought that they probably prayed about the same things that I would pray about. I realize that there are many paths to "enlightenment", "nirvana", or "heaven", but the path to take is the tricky part. Christianity's ideology has led me his far.
I also have been pondering about natural selection, survival of the fittest type ideas within the human race. I have realized that schools, sports, and the worklife is dedicated to keep this alive through competition. But I dont think competition is so great, many Americans, capitalism supporters, and people that care a lot on their materialistic living think otherwise. Competition ensures a winner, but also a loser who ultimately lives what is looked upon as a pathetic low income life. This stresses me out, because during school, I notice these things. People who score low on tests do bad in life. I don't want to be this person. I sort of want to be able to continue learning in higher level schools. But because of a single income that is low, and none since my dad is layed-off and my mom died when I was 8 (masters in biology, teacher), I may be forced to live out a life of a laborer, or something to that effect. This feeling has been strengthened because of a poor grade in a math class that I know I can do much better in.
I guess it's sort of a contradiction, I talk about materialistic living, and immediate gratification, but then I don't want to be a peasant, and I care...
ty phatboy

The subtlety of nature is far beyond that of sense or of the understanding; so that the specious meditations, speculations, and theories of mankind are but a kind of insanity, only there is no one to stand by and observe it.
-Francis Bacon "Novum Organum"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 03-08-2005 3:26 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 03-09-2005 8:14 PM joshua221 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 79 of 81 (190836)
03-09-2005 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by joshua221
03-09-2005 7:31 PM


Re: Religion: Survival of the craziest?
Prophex, do you find that homework is fun? I remember that when I was in school, homework was usually boring rote memorization that did not kindle my interest. It was a discipline to be able to learn the terms and the concepts behind them.
When I graduated from High School, I was forming a sort of a social life with all of my friends from school and in the neighborhood.
I went to parties and hung out doing nothing useful while at the same time preparing to go to college.
Looking back, if I had it to do over again, I would have taken no more than 3 college courses per semester and worked part time. This way, I would still have somewhat of a social life yet I would not waste so much time. Some of my stoner friends from 25 years ago are STILL stoners and they really are not that much fun to be around any more.
You can learn some mind expanding concepts and methods of thinking by going to college. You can also learn some things from the uneducated adults in the neighborhood who just have wisdom from surviving and learning from the mistakes that they have made in life.
Don't ever feel that you are trapped. As long as you make the time for yourself to learn and grow, you will learn and grow.
You and Chris are smart! The challenge for you guys is to believe in yourselves and in the purpose and destiny that you have while on this planet. It is far too easy to get a laborer job and slum it with your friends for ten or twenty years while trying to figure life out. It is far better to keep pushing the envelope...stay in school, get part time jobs as you get older and maybe then you could go to the state college on student grants or loans. Keep thinking! If you party at all, keep it to a minimum!
BTW I respect your Dad! Tell him that I am praying for him and that I know that he will continue to do well in life as he has already done. With two sons like you and porcelain, he is "mos def" blessed!
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-10-2005 13:39 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by joshua221, posted 03-09-2005 7:31 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by joshua221, posted 03-10-2005 5:56 PM Phat has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 81 (190977)
03-10-2005 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
03-09-2005 8:14 PM


Re: Religion: Survival of the craziest?
Thanks Phatboy.
Yeah, sometimes the people that you meet, that have never attended college, or might not have even graduated high school are the most intelligent.
Another thing that has happened to me recently has really rattled me. I was snowboarding at a local place about 35 minutes away from my house. My friends didn't go, my brother didn't go either. I was sitting down eating lunch inside the "lodge". I sat in a table next to the line for buying food. I watched a guy I have never seen before buy a piece of pizza, a coke, then he approached me. He asked me if I was alone, and if he could have lunch with me.
I said sure, and he sat down, he asked me some questions to start a conversation maybe. He asked me about college, and what I wanted to do. I told him, philosophy, and maybe theology, study of ancients texts. He instantly connected, telling me that he had gone to school for philosophy, graduated Cornell, and 2 other forgotten highly prestigous schools. He told me about an author, Herman Hesse, who I has previously been recommended from a great teacher, Mr. H. He teaches Global Studies at my school. This was strange because he talked about things that I had been stressing out about for so long with me. This was amplified by a similar story that my teacher Mr H. had told me about a "Dweller", a man who resonated a large sound, and could pick up on others' sounds, this dweller said he had stayed in the same place for a long time, and this allowed him to pick up on others' sounds.
I immediately thought of this, and actually questioned the guy I was eating lunch with about it, he barely responded, getting caught in a web of Chinese Philosophy, his past experiences in Desert Storm.
After the long conversation he left, and I rode the ski lift up with him, never saw him again.
After reading "Siddhartha", and "Demian" I realized what effect this dweller was talking to me about.
I wrote down the topics of talk in my journal, and the implications that I could connect with my life were obvious. The messages have stayed with me. But this experience has turned me on to a path that make me have the need to attend a college, and pursue my wishes in education.

The subtlety of nature is far beyond that of sense or of the understanding; so that the specious meditations, speculations, and theories of mankind are but a kind of insanity, only there is no one to stand by and observe it.
-Francis Bacon "Novum Organum"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 03-09-2005 8:14 PM Phat has not replied

  
EZscience
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 81 of 81 (200724)
04-20-2005 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Parasomnium
03-02-2005 5:22 AM


Back in the 1980's (lost the reference) an evolutionary biologist named Alexander made a very convincing argument for group-selection being an exceptionally strong force in human evolution.
(Note: normally, 'group-selectionist' arguments are considered very weak because selection acting at the level of the individual is so much stronger than at the level of the group. For example, all explanations of adaptations being "for the good of the species" are group-selectionist and have been discredited. The consensus is that "GS" explanations should only be employed when selection at the level of the individual is inadequate, e.g. explaining the evolution of altruism). However, Alexander points out that GS may be very important in the evolution of human civilization because conflict between groups (and cooperation within groups) was SOOOO important to survival of individuals.
I think religion is an example of a social phenomenon that has evolved in parallel forms in ALL human civilizations becuase it serves as such a strong cohesive force within human social groups. Groups with a religion had an extra unifying element in their structure. You don't just risk your life fighting for your group, but for a GOD who will take care of you if you die.
All human societies in history evolved some sort of religion,
and all religions share common premises:
1. a moral code of conduct (evolutionary function: diminishes intra-group conflict, stabilizing social structure)
2. an explanation of some kind of afterlife - re-incarnation, heaven, whatever - (evolutionary function: stabilizes the pysche of individuals seeking 'purpose' in their life)
3. a quick and easy answer to all the great unknowns of life, i.e. "God did it" (why are we here? what purpose does life serve? etc. etc. (evolutionary function: stabilizes the pysche of individuals struggling with the meaning of life )
4. postulates omnipotent being(s) as a source of teleological guidance for all life processes (evolutionary function: stabilizes the pysche of individuals by reducing their individual responsibility for higher order problems of the earth that, by default, are the responsability of humans *IF* they are the most intelligent beings and there is no God).
In human evolution, groups with religion probably out-competed groups without religion because they were both more unified in purpose, and they were less uncertain about the finality of death so they were more willing to do battle.
Bottom line: religion probably served an evolutionary function at one time or it would not be so ubiquitous in human societies, BUT IT DIDN'T EVER HAVE TO BE *true* TO SERVE THIS FUNCTION.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Parasomnium, posted 03-02-2005 5:22 AM Parasomnium has not replied

  
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