Nature and the fall of man

As one of those Christians, LOL, let me give this a try.First, while there are some assertions of some kind of Fall in parts of the NT, when looking at the source material, Genesis, there is nothing that would suggest either a Fall, some earlier perfect nature or that anything changed. It's simply not to be found there.It appears to me that you have two questions; first "If the current state of nature is not due to the Fall, then what is it due to?" and second,"Why does God permit these terrible natural events to occur?"The current state of Nature doesn't seem to be any different than at any other time of history. I can see no indications that anything has changed except from a human-centric position, things are somewhat better than they have ever been before.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'm not completely sure what it is that you're talking about. But I'll take a stab and if you think I'm off on a tangent, you can help me out.I'm not sure there are terrible natural events. There are events. The events are Natural. Whether or not the events are good, bad or neutral depends on the perspective of the observer. I discussed this in great depth in the thread Message 1 with Gilgamesh.Change is the norm. It is the result of the Universe GOD created.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Again, you are taking a human centric and very shallow view of events, and turning GOD into a very small and pitiable creature. I don't think you had time enough to read all 300+ messages in the thread I linked to, or even just the direct exchanges between myself and Gilgamesh on that very subject. But let me try to give you a few examples to see if I can explain my point of view.A female mosquito bites a human. The human gets milaria. The mosquito gets a meal and so can reproduce. From the human's point of view that is a tragedy. From the mosquito's point of view it was a successful event. From the point of view of nearly everything else in the universe, it was simply neutral.Some 65 thousand years ago a meteor crashed to earth a few hundreds of miles from where I live. The impact caused devestation around the world. The result was bad for those dinosaurs that died out, good for those that evolved into birds, opened niches that let mammals evolve and eventually lead to humans.I happen to believe in a Good GOD, one that loves everything equally. The system he set up is perfect. Life goes on and has done so for billions of years that we know about.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

duplicate post, see above. Sorry.This message has been edited by jar, 12-28-2005 12:58 PM

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

But I did not say it's all good. I said GOD is good. No, the cancer does not have a right to live. A cancerous growth is not a separate entity. That's very definitely bad for the baby. I don't think that's good for anyone.BUT...both the examples you gave were natural event, simply examples of what does happen.And this is one of the wonderful changes as mankind abandoned the concept Of the Fall.As long as we looked on things like you have mentioned as Acts of GOD, or the result of the Fall, or God's will, there was little we could do about it. With the knowledge we have gained over the mellenia, knowledge of Evolution and Genetics, we are beginning to understand how to treat cancers and birth defects. We are learning that such things are natural.It is only through the understanding that mankind is not some fallen creature that we can begin to understand our place in this system. And fortunately, GOD has given us the ability to think, and the knowledge that there is right, and wrong, and the capability to work to make life better.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I of course cannot speak for PurpleDawn, but that is certainly not what I'm saying.The rest of your post is not at all what I say either.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I said that the system is perfect. The system is designed to assure that life evolves, changes to meet changing conditions. That in no way says that the products of the system are the best of all possible worlds.What is says is that it is the world.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Is there a question in there? If so I couldn't find it. Okay. I believe that is your viewpoint. Fine.But I do see it as a perfect system. It has allowed life to continue even through some very major changes. It allows life to evolve and change as conditions change. It's been working now for many billions of years.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Actually, according to the Bible, it was not the Pharoah who would not let the Hebrews go, but God. The Pharoah was more than willing to see a troublesome peoples leave but the Hebrew God "hardened Pharoah's heart".This message has been edited by jar, 12-28-2005 10:59 AM

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'm not even sure that the Fall is necessary for Christianity.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I think that's an apt description of what many believe.However, reading the Biblical accounts I can find no support for that belief. The story in Genesis is quite clear that the potential for doing wrong has been part of man, and GOD from the very beginning. Had that potential not been there the story would make no sense.The Genesis tale is not one of some Fall, but rather a great gift and a subsequent charge that went with the gift. The only difference between Adam and Eve before eating the forbidden fruit and after eating the forbidden fruit is that afterwards, they knew what they had done was wrong.The whole rest of the Bible is devoted to explaining the charge that went with that gift of knowledge. Now that you know the difference between right and wrong, GOD charges you with trying to do right.It really is as simple as that.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Yes, I acknowledged that some Christian sects beleieve there was a Fall and Original Sin. There are even assertion in the New Testament related to that.What I said is that when you read Genesis, there is simply no support for either of those positions. If you would like, we can step through the first three chapters of Genesis to see where such an idea might originate.As to the Westminster Catechism, since it doesn't jibe with what the Bible says (for example Answer 17) I have always had a hard time subscribing to it.The story of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is not one of some fall, but rather a gift. Their innocence was the innocence of ignorance. They were not free of sin, and nothing in Genesis says so. Their nature did not change, sin did not enter the world, all that happened was that they became aware that some actions were wrong.Before eating of the forbidden fruit, thy had no way to know that they were even disobeying GOD. Right and wrong had no meaning.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

The ideas of the Fall and Original Sin are but marvelous cop-outs. It's a way of saying "It's not my fault, Adam & Eve did it." The Fall and Original Sin are nothing more than a comfort blanket to allow folk to dodge responsibility and not have to deal with the Harder issues of "What can we do about it?"When we look at life though, we simply don't see signs of either the Fall or Original Sin. People today live longer that at any time in history. We can recognize and cure more deseases then ever before. We are beginning to learn enough that hopefully soon, even birth defects will be a thing of the past.We are beginning to understand even Natural Events. While we are still far from being able to control them, we are getting better and better at predicting them so that we can protect lives. We are also learning ways to build structures to withstand natural events and to minimize even property loss.For the first time in history we are also beginning to do what Adam was suposed to be doing, taking care of the garden. Efforts like the Endangered Species List, Conservation, Environmental Protection Laws, efforts such as the Occupational Protection and Health Administration undertake are steps towards becoming the stewards GOD charged us to become.It's been a long path. Humans ain't all that bright. We be slow learners. But maybe, just maybe, we are beginning to understand the messages from Genesis, and they are not about a Fall or Original Sin. The messages of Genesis are that we do know right from wrong, we are charged to try to do right, and we are expected by GOD to be good stewards of this Earth.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Yes, as I said, it's just a cop out. Many folk believe as you do that there is this wrath of God on acount of Adam did it. It's not their fault, it's built into the system.Well, I don't buy that and if you read Genesis, there is no support for it either. No Fall, no Original Sin. Yup, many people believe as you do. I just don't buy it. Why look beyond what actually causes suffering? Suffering is caused by a lack of knowledge and a lack of commitment to do what GOD and Jesus has told us to do, try to do what is right.GOD gave us a brain and he expects us to use it. He expects us to work to solve the problems, not to bemoan some imaginary Fall. Yes, and no. The Blessing is our brains and the ability to use them. Salvation is something that has been freely given to ALL mankind, not to Christians, but to everyone. IMHO, the Christian past shows little to be proud of, a few shinning moments in an otherwise bleak landscape of intolerance and oppression. The improvements only come about when mankind throws off the shackles of dogma and actually uses the brain GOD gave us. Right now you are right. Christianity is certainly more threatened today than at anytime in the past. Groups like the televagelists, the 700 Club, ACLJ, preachers like Robertson, Falwell, Hodges, Phelps and the like are the greatest threat to Christianity and the world we've seen in a long, long time. Movements such as the Creationist and ID proponents threaten to throw us back into the darkness and away from the light.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Birth defects happen. Has nothing to do with religion.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion