Nature and the fall of man

emphasis mine Doesn't making such an elementary mistake such as this, motivate you into doing some serious Bible study, maybe even a formal course?Brian.edited out a pointless statement.This message has been edited by Brian, 12-28-2005 09:01 AM

That was man's fault wasn't it? Apparently, free thinking has no place in a perfect world.Brian.

In Judaism, Adam and Eve's 'Fall' (xian concept) was not the first time that a human disobeyed God, so how can you shoe-horn the Xian concept of original sin into a faith that it has no place in?Brian.This message has been edited by Brian, 12-30-2005 04:45 AM

Hi F, I don't think this is what the oldest creation myth (Gen.2) says.It clearly says that Adam was created first:Gen. 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Adam was created first, and was so lonely that God finally realised how stupid He had been and:2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.Only then were animals were created. After Adam had made love to a female of all the different animals, and found none of them suitable: 2:20 but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. (I heard that Miss Hamster 4500 BCE had a particularly nasty interview), God decided to make him a more suitable partner.It is only after God created animals that He decided to create Eve, keeping in mind that He created Adam before the animals.I know the other creation myth has a different order of creation, but that myth is addressing a different issue. Eve must have been about 4 inches tall if she was made from a rib. Your own opinion. Biblical. Your own opinion.It is interesting that Eve was created third, even lower than an animal, it sure explains the exploitation of women for centuries by loving Christians.The Fall is a philosophical tale, used to explain where suffering came from, don't confuse it with actual history.Brian.This message has been edited by Brian, 12-30-2005 05:22 PM

I know it will take a few years, but come back when you graduate from Sunday School.Brian.

As far as you are concerned, of course it is. But you are the one whose knowledge of the Bible has recently been exposed as extremely poor, especially in regard to the Old Testament.However, people such as yourself and Faith, really do have a very naive view of the Bible, and I do not mean that as an insult. You really appear to think that the Bible was written in a vacuum, uninfluenced by external social and political factors. What you and Faith believe about my knowledge of the Bible makes no difference to my life, as long as I have the pieces of paper to prove what I know, and there will be one or two others to come, and that I am making a good living out of teaching biblical studies, speaks for itself.Happy New Year.Brian.

No, you have the naiveté and ignorance to fail to recognise that the Bible is a collection of texts put together by councils who accepted, or rejected, texts based on their own beliefs.
There is no reason to believe that the biblical texts are any different from any other ancient texts, they were written for many different reasons. To promote the faith, to give some sort of legitimacy for an action, to explain rituals, to preserve Israelite hierarchies, to give ancient Israel a ”history’, far too many reasons to go into. Look at the texts regarding true and false prophets, these are essentially self preservation texts, do no listen to any other prophet, even if their prophecies come to pass, you really need to believe in Yahweh or our faith will collapse. It is pretty obvious that the priesthood and Israelite elders were protecting their positions with texts such as these. All it takes Faith is the Sunday School understanding that you have of the Bible. These arguments you put forward are simply childish. When adults study the Bible they go beyond Sunday School level investigation. Don’t get me wrong, Sunday School has its place, I still have a few Sunday School certificates from over 30 years ago, but its place in as far as understanding the construction of the Bible, is a starting point. I fear this is where both you and Randman, and a few others here, are stuck, you do not appear to want to burst out of the Sunday School comfort zone and actually appreciate the Bible in its true contexts. This stance is nave and childish, don’t you truly want to understand the Bible, are you not interested in the different worlds that it was written in? I only ridicule you to try and motivate you to study the Bible properly, and not to be content with this suffocating approach that you have. The Bible is wonderful, and I fear that you are missing out on so much with this blinkered approach. But, I did see it, when I was earning these Sunday School certificates 30-odd years ago, I had the same understanding that you have now. However, when I could afford to, and when I had the time to, I wanted to really study the Bible, I wasn’t content with the childlike knowledge that I had, I knew there was far more to the Bible than what we see at face value, and it is only when studied in the context of the ancient worlds in which it was written can anyone fully appreciate the Book. The writers maybe had fear of losing followers, or their esteemed positions, but why would they fear God? Also, it is rather nave to assume that we know who the writers of the Bible were, in the Old Testament we do not know who wrote a single book! If it isn’t naiveté, what is it?What is wrong with studying the Bible as an historical document, don’t you have any desire to reach the truth about the texts?Brian.

That really doesn't surprise me in the least

Interesting subtitle because automatons are exactly what fundamentalist preachers would like us all to be!However, the Bible states quite explicitly, several times, that creation wasn't perfect, so no big deal.Brian.