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Author Topic:   Nature and the fall of man
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 169 of 300 (274285)
12-30-2005 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Faith
12-30-2005 8:02 PM


Re: What does it take to believe "the old beliefs?"
Well, that's how it hit me too when I did believe it, as a fairytale come true, but waaaaaay bigger than a fairytale. But come true.
If I may ask, how did it come true for you? I've been through quite a bit of crap in my life, and I expect to go through a lot more, but I can't imagine going through anything so bad or so weird or even so lucky that it would cause me to see the "truth" in the Christian fables.
Prediction: you'll tell me to stuff it, but I am actually genuinely curious. I realize there's probably no act you would presume too low of me, but I do draw the line at the ridicule of a person's individual faith narrative.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 12-30-2005 8:02 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 12-30-2005 9:36 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 174 of 300 (274332)
12-31-2005 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Faith
12-30-2005 9:36 PM


Re: What does it take to believe "the old beliefs?"
Well, I appreciate you telling me. It doesn't make any sense to me, but I appreciate the effort.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 12-30-2005 9:36 PM Faith has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 210 of 300 (275208)
01-03-2006 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Faith
01-02-2006 10:18 PM


Re: If no Fall
The problem with this idea is that people don't believe anything simply because it is "reassuring."
Every atheist knows that this statement is false. Apparently, you don't pay attention to what your cohorts are telling us all the time: "wouldn't it just be so much more comforting for you to believe in God?"
Of course people believe in things because they're reassuring. It's the oldest human story. Assurance comes first; truth is almost always second.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Faith, posted 01-02-2006 10:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Faith, posted 01-03-2006 1:27 AM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 220 of 300 (275239)
01-03-2006 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Faith
01-03-2006 1:27 AM


Re: If no Fall
Can you give an example of this -- completely outside the usual topics here of course.
You, of course. You told me about how you thought it was all nonsense, but clearly you found value in it, reassurance, because you kept thinking about it.
And sure enough, after a little bit of time, you came to believe that it was true, as well. Assurance came first; truth second.
I would say that anyone who appears to believe for the sake of reassurance simply doesn't really believe, and as soon as some test of belief comes along, something that makes it not so reassuring but hard work or painful to believe, this will be exposed.
So, nobody can ever change their beliefs? If their beliefs ever change, it's because they didn't really believe what they used to believe?
How do you discern the difference between the fake beliefs you hold at this point in time and the real beliefs that you'll eventually believe in and never change?
No Muslim who converts to Christ, for instance, believes for the sake of reassurance, because the immediate consequence is to put his life in jeopardy, at least his membership in his family and every kind of security. He has to REALLY believe in order to face that inevitable reality.
And yet, he wouldn't have converted to Christianity if Islam had been reassuring to him, so clearly he's already getting reassurance from Christianity.
It's always about reassurance, as the believers on your side constantly remind atheists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Faith, posted 01-03-2006 1:27 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-03-2006 2:31 AM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 225 by Faith, posted 01-03-2006 3:31 AM crashfrog has not replied

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