What is Your Worldview?

This is probably off-topic, but nobody who is in love feels that they had a choice.Isn't that one of the defining features of true love? That it is compelling and irresistable? How can love be a choice if it is irresistable?

... umm.. sure, I guess it depends on what you consider to be real.I see what you are saying. Yep! Back with all my buddies on Flooders (our dorm floor) and back to classes. I'm having a GREAT time.

So you think that if all religious belief disappeared, then we would have a utopia? I think you are mistaken. Beliefs have been used to justify the full range of activities both good and bad. Converting everyone to atheism would not eliminate all the other problems of humanity and friction between peoples. In fact, belief in God has served many times as a lubricant between peoples. And without the comforting answers to all the "why's?" I suspect there would be even more friction. Haha... Do you shudder with fear every time a jet flies overhead? Of course not. Jets don't kill people. People kill people.About my avatar: I've loved aircraft and the military for as long as I can remember. There's nothing like flying, especially in a marvel of a machine like the F-18 superhornet. Its my dream to serve in the Marine Corps as a fighter pilot and be the man in that picture. I enjoy any kind of competition and combat. Do I enjoy war? Of course not. But I like warriors. I admire more than anything else those who give their all even their life for the freedom of others. Because without them we wouldn't be sitting here in our cozy chairs, knowledge at our fingertips, and freedom to speak our minds. You should be glad there are courageous and honorable men flying the aircraft in my avatar picture that so upsets you, because they are there protecting YOUR freedom and prosperity. I don't condemn you. I disagree with you. And I'm glad you're here for me to disagree with.

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Converting everyone to atheism would not eliminate all the other problems of humanity and friction between peoples.

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Quite true. On the other hand, as long as we use an ineffable, invisible, untestable premise for our decisions they simply cannot be reliable. I agree that religion or doctrine is seldom causative of violence; but it provides a rationale, an excuse for violence. After all, violence matters less to theists who believe in life after death; it is my experience that theists generally find violence more acceptable more easily than atheists.

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Jets don't kill people. People kill people.

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Bullshit. If you really believe that, don't use them. Go back to fighting with your bare hands and teeth.

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But I like warriors. I admire more than anything else those who give their all even their life for the freedom of others.

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But Jesus is supposedly great in part becuase he did not kill. Have you not been instructed to turn the other cheek? Did God not command 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'? Are you really a christian, HangDawg, or just pretending to be one?

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You should be glad there are courageous and honorable men flying the aircraft in my avatar picture that so upsets you, because they are there protecting YOUR freedom and prosperity.

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No, they are terrorists and murderous scum. Just yesterday these "heroes" bombed a residential area of Fallujah and killed 9 children. Jets don't kill children, pilots kill children, eh HangDawg?

Thank you for your reply. As I said, I like warriors. I admire more than anything else those who give their all even their life for the freedom of others. That is precisely what Jesus Christ did. Yep. Jesus said if someone strikes you turn the other cheek. He did not say if someone murders your son offer him your daughter to murder as well. No He didn't. When you figure out what it means to be a Christian, you let me know.Look, lets not turn this into a debate on whether God wants us to be strict pacifists or not and when violent force is justified. That is another topic. And due to their actions you are free to sit there and call them as such.

I do not know if I got this off of this website or elsewhere, but having contracycle and hangdawg in the same room allows us the possibility of measuring two opposing worldviews. I took the test and I score a bit left of center and a bit below midpoint. Why don't you guys take the test to see where you score?
http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/

Hangdawg13 We are distiguishing here between warriors and soldiers I presume? I am wondering if you believe that violence is ethical when the facts of the reason for participation in a conflict are not clear{as in withheld} or even unknown? Would you personally fight for people who may be diametrically opposed to your reasons for fighting to the point of giving your life for them? Would you spare an enemy his life if you found it distasteful, for instance having to shoot him down in front of his children?Do you find it acceptable to face a man in hand to hand combat and in the melee lose and be crippled for life perhaps unable to feed yourself and to be willing to accept that burden? What I am trying to get at is just where do you draw the line between what is acceptable and moral and that which you would refuse to do no matter what?

I don't know if we are ready to go that deep with this, sidelined. Let me share what I see.
Hangdawg is a loyal Christian who is also a Patriot. He believes that his country, despite its flaws, upholds Christian morality by freeing oppressed people from the shackles of dictators and such.
Contracycle, on the other hand, is also passionate about people being free, but his idea of freedom is freedom from Western Capitalism and unfair economic oppression. Perhaps a better question to ask in exploring these World Views is this: (Well, I have a few questions)
1) Contracycle, do you see an ideal government as being similar to the book of Acts? Specifically, Acts 2:43-472) Hangdawg, in what ways are Christianity and the Declaration of Independance similar? How about Christianity and Capitalism?
In what ways do they differ?This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-03-2004 02:41 AM

Hey Phatboy,I did it. I was right on the line between libertarian and authoritarian and about 3 spaces to the right (about 1/3 of the way down the line to the right).I'm not sure how accurate it is though... Many questions I could have gone either way on depending on how you look at it or what other stipulations are involved.This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 09-03-2004 02:06 AM

IOW, (and correct me if this is not what you are asking) would I give my life so someone with Contracycle's views could live in a free society? Absolutely. Like in Bourne Identity? I don't know. It depends on the situation. In some situations I might be doing his kids a favor. In other situations I might not. If what I was fighting for was good, yes. I don't know exactly. It depends on the situation. I have a scale of values that I try to base such decisions on. Sometimes decisions are clear cut, and there are other cases where you must choose the lesser of two evils. You might have to allow one man to die to save a hundred. You might have to go to war to attain peace. You might have to jump on the grenade yourself to save your comrades. None are easy decisions, but sacrifices are a part of life and sometimes the most stirring things to the soul.

I agree with your estimation of my position except the clause "Christian morality" because I believe right and wrong are qualities that all people can see and accept. I think God has made morality plain to all people. IOW, Christians do not hold a monopoly on morality, only spirituality in the sense of God's Spirit. I know this is for Contracycle, but I just wanted to say.I think this passage describes the perfect society -- how we are meant to live. But for this to happen, all people must be unified in one spirit. On a national scale that is not the case. Because we are not one in the same spirit and because we are all sinners and fail, we must have a separate authoritative national government. The society as described in Acts should act within the establishment of that national government, but you cannot use government to force everyone into that kind of society. Well, I think freedom is our natural right. We should be able to be who we are and do what we want so long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of others to do the same. But we don't live in a perfect world, and authority tends to increase to make up for our own lack of wisdom and control. So freedom is our ideal, but authority must be respected as well.I think that parable about the employer giving all his workers one denari no matter how long they worked pretty much comes out in strong support of capitalism and free enterprise. But he also says, Render unto Ceasar's what is Ceasar's. The basic message is pursue freedom and respect authority.

Hangdawg,Would you be precise about what you believe Jesus did?
What did he give? And why was it a gift?
I think I know what you believe but I'm not sure so before I bring up a counterpoint I want to hear what is being asserted. Thanks. Ummm? I'm puzzled. How does that bombing in Iraq result in him being free to sit there and criticize them? I'm thinking you were very tired when you wrote this post. I've been there and done that but this is a slogan useful for motivating patriotic activities but beyond that does it make sense?lfen

Wow, you do? What does this mean a "monopoly in the sense of God's Spirit?". You don't think Rumi, or Ramana Maharshi felt and understood God's spirit, to name only two of a very large number of nonchristian spiritual people?lfen

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No He didn't.

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This in response to whether or not god gave an injunction against killing. Please explain.

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When you figure out what it means to be a Christian, you let me know.

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I know exactly what it means - it means to be a murderous hypocrite.

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And due to their actions you are free to sit there and call them as such.

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Don't be absurd - your murderers have made no-one free, they bring only oppression and terror.

Thanks for your reply, Hangdawg! I just thought I would throw out a few thoughts. I do not necessarily agree with all of them, nor do I disagree. I let God teach me what is real in this world.
For example, Jesus said: In America today, the message that many hear is that if anyone wants to pursue happiness, they must deny themselves nothing, take their Visa Card, and follow the signs to the mall. Our free and powerful country feels very good to us! We will defend it at great cost! The Bible talks of a spiritual freedom. Jesus said that no man can serve two masters. George W. Bush said that the nations of the world would have to take a stand. Either be for us or against us.
There are challenges in the modern world because, on the one hand, America must be a moral compass yet on the other hand, we defend our national interests. Are we a Christian Nation? If not, what are we?