Is Anything Evil? Does Evil Exist?

IF I were to go with the idea that truth is an absolute and that Jesus Christ is truth, (in a living sense) I would be approaching this argument by declaring that God is good, evil is the absence of God (in the sense that whenever a person sins, they are denying God either consciously or subconsciously at that moment.)Anyway....addressing your point: At the risk of being labeled a blatant quote miner, I will attempt to address some points in this thread from a scriptural basis.I am also going to put on my charismatic worldview hat for a moment so as to support Robs attempt at formulating a position concerning this subject. Bear with my ignorance, therefore, if you detect it in its many guises.

First, we have this idea that both good and evil are relative and not in and of themselves personified. A fundamentalist may assert that Jesus Christ, as Gods Son and personified member of the Trinity, is good incarnate. Jesus Himself pointed to His Father as good.(Matthew 19:17) A Biblical Literalist may also declare that the Devil is real and is also personified evil, having no Holy Spirit with him just as Jesus had none of Satan in Him. (John 8:44) One example that may be used to prove this point is Jesus saying (to His Disciples)

NIV writes:

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Matt 24:9-10-- "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

It would give us pause to wonder why on earth men would be hated. If evil is not personified, does it then follow that hate is not synonymous with evil? (I suppose that the critics would say that one mans evil is another mans good.) IMO, whether it was Americans "rejoicing" over Hiroshima or Muslims "rejoicing" over 9-11 it was still a bit of a relative reaction to ones culture triumphing over another culture.

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So we could agree that human response to good and/or evil is relative to our own mind.

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We have yet to determine whether good and evil are themselves absolutes, however.

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In response to the Rich Young Ruler, Jesus said:

NIV writes:

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Matt 19:17-- "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

Does this mean that good is an absolute? My critics may assert that even though the Bible has an absolute view of good and evil, the Bible itself is a fallible creation of human wisdom. The philosophical implications still stand, however, if we are to argue whether a human author can be inspired by an absolute belief.

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We could say that all beliefs are relative to the individuals who profess them, but the question would be whether there is such a thing as absolute concepts. One mans God is another mans myth. One mans devil is another mans lifestyle.

purpledawn writes:

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In literature and speech people personify objects, abstract concepts, and human emotions, opinions, and personalities to name just a few.

True. And it could be argued that a fundamentalist, by accepting Christ into their heart, consciously or subconsciously personifies God as they understand Him. This is why down through History, the absolutists never considered the possibility that they were human since they had personified a Divine Creator into their internal Ego.

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Lets look at one of my own examples which spoke to me from the book of revelation:

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NIV writes:

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Rev 1:8-- "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Compare and contrast with:

NIV writes:

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Rev 17:7-8-- The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

From a literalist worldview, God is seen to have always existed. The devil is seen to have been a created thing who freely chose to sin (or chose to be separated from the absolute reality of God (as absolute) thus becoming Fallen and personifying evil. Remember that according to dogma and some Christian tradition, God never created evil. He created the possibility of evil. In that sense, evil is not personified in humans unless we choose it.

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The argument then shifts to whether our choices have to be governed as absolutes.

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In the above scriptures from Revelation, there is no gray area between the two terms, is and is not.

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Edited by Phat, : fixed quote

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Edited by Phat, : fixed mis attributed quote

Your response has nothing to do with observing a good or an evil.You aren't addressing your own topic.The most common usage of the word "evil" today carries the meaning of extreme moral wickedness. That usage came about around the 1800's.Before that, where we would use the words bad, cruel, unskillful, defective (adj.), or harm, crime, misfortune, and disease; the Anglo Saxons used the word evil.The greek word poneros also carried these various meanings. So we really have to understand what the author was saying when using the word poneros. Poneros isn't always translated as evil. Kakologeo is another word that is translated as evil, but doesn't imply moral corruption.I don't see that Jesus claims that all humans are morally wicked in the extreme.For Jesus to only come to save the sinners and not the righteous shows that all humans were not considered morally corrupt or evil in today's usage. Even Paul said that the Gentiles were naturally doing things required of God's law, not contrary to the law, but required of the law. Humans are not evil. Some humans may be morally corrupt, but being humans does not make one automatically evil.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Still catching up with your post, Phat. Thanks for taking the time.I appreciate that you let yourself in for more than the usual amount of dBCode with this one, but I wanted to alert you to one misattribution: That excerpt comes from purpledawn, not me. I was glad she mentioned this._____Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

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IF I were to go with the idea that truth is an absolute and that Jesus Christ is truth, (in a living sense) I would be approaching this argument by declaring that God is good, evil is the absence of God (in the sense that whenever a person sins, they are denying God either consciously or subconsciously at that moment.)

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You're not addressing reality. You are using a metaphor to create a picture or feeling. So now we have to weed through the religious jargon.When we look at the meanings of the word truth, the meanings that deal with our physical reality are: (1) the state of being the case: FACT (2)the body of real things, events, and facts: ACTUALITYWhen you say that Jesus Christ is truth, I feel that the third meaning is intended: a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality. You are comparing him to that fundamental or spiritual reality implying that they are similar. Unfortunately you've only stated a name, you haven't really given any information to the reader.
What is the fundamental or spiritual reality? (rhetorical)The same with God is good. That makes a nice visual for a sermon or Sunday school lesson, but it isn't a means to further this discussion concerning evil and what it means today or what the Bible authors were saying concerning evil. Language changes over time, we can't just look at the surface.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Clarification requested, Phat. How literally do you understand this premise?I ask because Christ is also word. And morning star. And evening star. And high priest. And king. And shepherd. And gate. And lion. And resurrection. And life. And A. And Z.In ancient literature Christ gets the job of personifying a variety of ideals. At the same time a number of images are called upon to personify Christ.The metaphorical nature of these images isn't hard to spot. Even taking Jesus' biography at face value as presented in the Gospels, it's safe to say he never had the gig of high priest. The Gospels even tell us the names of the people who did. We are given no indication that Jesus ever had a gig as a shepherd. Even if he did, he is unlikely to have had the job of gate, or of lion, at the same time. And so on.The premise 'Christ is truth' looks like a figure of speech in which Christ personifies an ideal. It's a poetic way of saying Christ doesn't lie.A case built upon a poetic statement becomes largely an extended poem itself. One is developing metaphors from metaphors. Nothing wrong with that, as long as the poet knows his poem really is a poem.Poetry excels as a subjective investigation of reality. As an objective investigation of reality, well... let's just say that in poetry objectivity is not the idea.____Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.Edited by Archer Opterix, : brev.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

You're off again, Rob. Sentence 1 is a fallacy... ...and after that it's all preachy melodrama.I had asked you in Message 69 to explain why a particular solution to the problem of evil struck you as 'tremendous.' I had asked why it even struck you as a 'solution.' Another way of asking the latter: what is the logical problem solved by this 'solution'?You've made no attempt to address these questions. You just tossed out a glib, fallacious statement and fast-forwarded to a Jesus commercial.Please address the point. It was yours, after all._____Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

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Does this mean that good is an absolute? My critics may assert that even though the Bible has an absolute view of good and evil, the Bible itself is a fallible creation of human wisdom. The philosophical implications still stand, however, if we are to argue whether a human author can be inspired by an absolute belief.

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I'm not sure why some people have the need for things to be absolute. (Something that exists independently of all relations and conditions, that which has reality or validity in and of itself.)Given that definition, no, good is not an absolute. Good is just a word that describes positive actions.I would say the Bible does not have an absolute view of good. Of course that also depends on what you mean by absolute view now that you're using absolute as an adjective. Even though Jesus said that there is only one who is good, in chapter 12 talks of a good man.

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In that sense, evil is not personified in humans unless we choose it.

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What do you mean by "evil being personified in humans"? Are you saying that people can choose to be the embodiment of evil or not?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Revelation 13:3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. 4 Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?" 5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. 6 He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. 9 He who has an ear, let him hear.

and what does this have to do with the topic?

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Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

Commandment #11:Thou Shalt Not Simply Cut And Paste

Always thought Revelations sounded like the author was spaced out on some mind-altering substance. Perhaps Allegro`s Magic Mushrooms?

I see your Revelation 13, and raise you a Mark 9: Your OP suggests that you want to discuss the reality of evil as we define it today. Whether you like it or not, the usage of the word has changed over time. You need to be more precise in what you are referring to when you say evil. (moral corruption, calamities, etc.)As I've said before and you haven't addressed, evil is a descriptive word. The noun form came about due to creative usage of the word.Bottom line: Humans classify actions as good, bad, or indifferent. Yes there are actions that we classify as wrong, but there is no one thing or object that causes a person to do wrong or right for that matter. What once was wrong can now be right and vice versa.Yes there are physiological anomalies that can prevent a person from understanding wrong from right. A short circuit in the brain is not evil, but may be the cause of a person committing heinous acts. The actions are classified as evil, but the short circuit is not the evil (cosmic evil force).Edited by purpledawn, : SubtitleEdited by Admin, : Fix evil link.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Assume a point, sir, if you have one not.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Rob: (Striking pose in profile, jutting jaw, throwing cape over shoulders) I didn't think it was possible.The drama is actually worse than the logic.______Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.Edited by Archer Opterix, : to the barber's with it.

Purpledawn:And so you have. Tempting me with my own pride. And God used you to test me, so that I may see my own sin before Him.It is a strange and beautiful paradox:Luke 17:1 Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come.Purpledawn:you left out the next verse......29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"-- (NAS)Mark 3:29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." (NIV)Luke concurs...Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. (NIV)Who is the Holy Spirit?John 14:17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.John 15:26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,John 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.You reject the voice of reason Purpledawn (Archer, Ringo, Nuggin, et al). As long as you do, you cannot be forgiven, for you cannot repent of your sin.'What sin'? you say (and that is what this thread is all about).1 John 1:10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.I will pray for you in the words of Jesus.Luke 23:34 But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing." And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves.John 20:23 "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."I release you PD. I pray you will release yourself by appropriating the salvation that is free to all who listen, believe, and repent. Blasphemy of the spirit is an attitude (a spirit of it's own). Let go of it, and you will live.Luke 17:33 Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.Now Pauls words (which are Christ's words) are my own words. Gods' wisdom is my own' thanks to God. And I am happy to suffer with him for Christ's sake. No longer do I resent you for your injustices. I can see again:I love you and wish you well...Acts 17:22-31
22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: ~to an unknown god. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you. 24 "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27 God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' 29 "Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone--an image made by man's design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."A new day has dawned.1 Corinthians 5:7 Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast--as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.Mark 1:3 "a voice of one calling in the desert, 'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.'" Edited by Rob, : No reason given.