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Author Topic:   Why was the world created?
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 59 (412765)
07-26-2007 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Open MInd
07-23-2007 12:37 PM


Open Mind

If no why can be thought of than the scientific theories are not complete, and the religions that answer this question will be more credible than science.

Well, therein lies the rub correct? How do we recognize the answer to the question of why except through our own biases as to what we would agree with? Of course perhaps it has been missed throughout the many centuries that religion never has answered the why question either, else people would no longer be asking would they?


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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 59 (412777)
07-26-2007 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Taz
07-26-2007 1:56 AM


Re: Science is very credible.
I know it is not what OpenMind meant, however in the case of the specific question he asked, the technical and rhetorical questions have the same answer.

The reason why we have this world is because it is impossible to not have this world.

OpenMind wants to assert that religions answer the question better than science. I am telling him that that is rubbish, religions do not answer the question of why the world exists while science most definitely does.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Open MInd
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 18 of 59 (412796)
07-26-2007 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Chiroptera
07-25-2007 5:34 PM


Is that a good enough answer?
I dont think the person who answers by saying that no answer exists is better than someone who says they have an answer. Furthermore, for some reason everything else in the world has an answer to the question why?

Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.


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Open MInd
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 19 of 59 (412797)
07-26-2007 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
07-26-2007 9:05 AM


Re: Science is very credible.
Why is it impossible for a world not to exist? That statement makes no sense. From a science perspective, why/what would cause absolute nothingness to have to become a world? From a religious perspective, why would anything want to create a world?
This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 12161
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 20 of 59 (412801)
07-26-2007 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Open MInd
07-26-2007 11:01 AM


Re: Science is very credible.
Personally, I think it is all rubbish to speculate on why or why not the owrld must exist rather than to get back to the real question of why we exist.From a strictly logical standpoint, I cannot answer that by strictly saying that by some universal throw of the dice, conditions just happened to be right for life on earth. Its cold, rational, and un-philosophical as pertaining to humans.

I believe that God has a specific purpose for each one of us. I believe that we are special in His eyes.

Each one of us has different needs in order to complete our sense of self, our perception and acknowledgment of our destiny, and our overall drive as a species.

I don't believe in the simple and coldly emotionless "survival of the fittest" merely for survivals sake.

I believe that the purpose for why you exist and why you ask us these questions is tied in to a larger and very important plan.

We all want to know why we are here and why everything is as it is.
I have personally seen young people who never had active Fathers who were more pessimistic and clueless regarding these questions, but overall that was no definite excuse---it was more of an observation.

Sometimes, other humans can't give you the answers that you seek.

God can. (Spiritual perspective)

Science can answer a lot of questions in a fact based reality as well, but it by no mans should prevent you from being a philosopher, should you so choose. :) Thats my 2 and a half cents worth!


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Open MInd
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 21 of 59 (412802)
07-26-2007 11:18 AM


The word "Why?"
It seems to me that this word should not exist in a scientist’s vocabulary, and it should not exist in the vocabulary of any non-religious person. This word must have been the invention of those religious worshipers. For any question that one can use the word "why", the word "how" can just as easily be substituted. A good example is the question, Why is there evil in the world? A scientist explaining how the evil in the world evolved from nothing can then give a lecture. If one asks why a person committed a crime, a scientific individual would explain how the chemicals in his brain along with the persons surroundings, caused him to do the crime. Notice that the answer given would not explain why the person did it. To even accept the word "why" as a question, one must be taking a non-deterministic approach to life, and one must believe that the person acting has some sort of freewill in order to make a thought out decision. Basically, its not that the scientists don’t deal with the question of why, its that the scientists don’t even consider the word “why” to be a real word of meaning.
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Phat
Member
Posts: 12161
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 22 of 59 (412803)
07-26-2007 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by sidelined
07-26-2007 7:15 AM


Is That The Final Answer?
sidelined writes:

Of course perhaps it has been missed throughout the many centuries that religion never has answered the why question either, else people would no longer be asking would they?

Or maybe the answer exists yet people either cannot or will not find it.

The fact that we continue to ask questions is a good sign that we have not given up, however. ;)


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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 23 of 59 (412804)
07-26-2007 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Open MInd
07-26-2007 10:54 AM


Re: Is that a good enough answer?
If no why can be thought of than the scientific theories are not complete, and the religions that answer this question will be more credible than science.

According to science the answer to why the universe exists is "Because it can". Because it can, it inevitably does.

You may not like that answer or consider it what you are looking for but in the absence of conscious intent what answer is there other than a technical answer of probability and inevitability?

If you are hoping to feed the very human need for actual conscious meaning or intent in your 'why' then you will need to turn to religion.
I don't see how that gives the religious answer any more credibility. It just feeds a more human need for answers of a certain type.

Despite potentially pandering to human desires at the expense of accuracy on this question no religion, as far as I am aware, has fully or satisfactorally actually answered the question of 'why' anyway.

Furthermore, for some reason everything else in the world has an answer to the question why?

Even religion can only provide limited respite from the question 'why' as eventually unanswerable questions about Gods motivation will always arise.

E.g.
Q: Why did God create the universe?
A: So that man could exist
Q: Why did God create the existence of man?
A: So that we could worship him
Q: Why does God wish to be worshipped?
A:

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 59 (412806)
07-26-2007 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Open MInd
07-26-2007 11:01 AM


Re: Science is very credible.
Why is it impossible for a world not to exist?

Because it is inevitable.

A drop of water in freefall forms a perfect sphere, why?. It can form no other shape due to the laws of physics.

The same goes for our world. Why it must behave that way is because it has to, it can do nothing else.

From a science perspective, why/what would cause absolute nothingness to have to become a world?

Absolute nothingness cannot become anything, but then, science doesn't say the world came from absolute nothingness. So if your question is why did the universe to form as it is now, the answer is that it could have done nothing else. The laws of physics demand that the universe forms.


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Phat
Member
Posts: 12161
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 25 of 59 (412808)
07-26-2007 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Open MInd
07-26-2007 11:18 AM


Re: The word "Why?"
Open Mind writes:

Basically, its not that the scientists don’t deal with the question of why, its that the scientists don’t even consider the word “why” to be a real word of meaning.

When Jason Cho went on his school carnage rampage, there were plenty of social scientists asking why.

Why is it that the same stresses and cultural influences that cause one teenager to become moody and overeat, piling up twinkies wrappers around their computer...would cause another kid to go by a TEC-9 and take out his biology class?

The religious people may say that we live in a fallen world and that people by nature are selfish, but that still does not explain why not all behave the same.

Psychiatrists have targeted chemical imbalances in the brain, and have attempted to fix them with a variety of pharmaceuticals--some of which work and some of which make other problems.

Personally, I believe that the answers to the reasons of why/how the world was created are to be found concretely in cosmology, and abstractly in both science and spirituality.

A wise man never places all his eggs in one basket, and I would imagine that a quest for answers would involve more than one disciplined field of study.

Are you in school? How do you feel about the answers that you are learning? Are they more than facts on a page? Are some of them stirrings within your soul? If so, I think that you are functioning quite appropriately as a human. You are asking questions and you are not afraid to look in more than one or two places to find them! ;)


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Phat
Member
Posts: 12161
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 26 of 59 (412809)
07-26-2007 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Straggler
07-26-2007 11:25 AM


Re: Is that a good enough answer?
Catholic Scientist writes:

If you are hoping to feed the very human need for actual conscious meaning or intent in your 'why' then you will need to turn to religion.
I don't see how that gives the religious answer any more credibility.

It all depends on who thinks the answer to be credible. Some folks are happy with answers that frustrate or do not appease other folks.

Catholic Scientist writes:


Even religion can only provide limited respite from the question 'why' as eventually unanswerable questions about Gods motivation will always arise.
Q: Why did God create the universe?
A:

Phat writes:

Because He can.


Q: Why did God create the existence of man?
A:
Phat writes:

He has a purpose and destiny for us. We reflect His glory (like your kids reflect you)


Q: Why does God wish to be worshiped?
A:
Phat writes:

He knows that it is good for our mental health to do so.

( I know a few people won't like that one! ) :rolleyes:

Edited by Phat, : added features!


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Chiroptera
Member (Idle past 12 days)
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 27 of 59 (412812)
07-26-2007 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Open MInd
07-26-2007 10:54 AM


Re: Is that a good enough answer?
I dont think the person who answers by saying that no answer exists is better than someone who says they have an answer has an answer.

Neither do I, but we're not discussing what makes one person better than another. We're discussing the question, "Why does the universe exist"? (Or, at least, that's what I think we're discussing.)

I don't think the question has an answer. I think the universe just exists. I'm not claiming that this makes me a better person. I'm merely stating that this is my opinion on the matter.

-

Furthermore, for some reason everything else in the world has an answer to the question why?

I don't know about that. You asked one such question in a later post. Why does evil exist? This is another question with no answer. "Evil" doesn't exist in an objective sense -- "evil" is a category in which some people place some things. However, since different people have different ideas about what things are "evil", and some people (like me) don't usually find "evil" to be a very useful category, then I think we can conclude that "evil" doesn't exist except in the minds of those people who make use of the concept.

Edited by Chiroptera, : Fixed quote tag.
Also, very odd -- first time I tried posting it didn't take, so I resubmitted it. Listed on All Topics, but message didn't exist. Also, at that time, this thread wasn't listed at all in the Topic Index for Chiroptera (although it is now).


I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders
This message is a reply to:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 3036 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 28 of 59 (412814)
07-26-2007 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Open MInd
07-23-2007 12:37 PM


The answer is easy
Asking why the world was created is really a question to be answered by religion.

I'd say most members here when talking about God are referring to the God of the Bible.

The creation story is in the Old testament, so we look for clues there.

When we look there, I think the answer is rather obvious.

The God of the Old Testament, yahweh, is nothing more than an animal, a bloodthirsty, disgusting creature who revels in the suffering and death of countless millions of men, women and children.

Yahweh is evil, pure and simple, and it is obvious that He created the world for His sick pleasure.

Yahweh is a barbarian, a sadistic creature whose only pleasure is to sit back and laugh at millions of babies starving to death, little children suffering with a range of cancers, old people that can barely walk and suffering from a range of painful disorders all created by Yahweh for his amusement.

So, the world was created by an evil, bloodthirsty, sadistic animal for His own pleasure.

Brian.


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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 29 of 59 (412816)
07-26-2007 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
07-26-2007 11:38 AM


Re: Is that a good enough answer?
Q: Why does he wish us good mental health?
This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Member (Idle past 12 days)
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 30 of 59 (412817)
07-26-2007 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Brian
07-26-2007 11:49 AM


Re: The answer is easy
Yahweh is a barbarian, a sadistic creature whose only pleasure is to sit back and laugh at....

And don't forget the billions of people burning in Hell for not being sufficiently sycophantic. Or for being sycophants in the wrong way.


I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders
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