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Author Topic:   God's existence cannot be proven logically!
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 57 (400965)
05-17-2007 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Archer Opteryx
05-17-2007 3:48 AM


Re: Subservient to Time
Thanks.
I actually thought of that one a long time ago, back when Randman was doing his "God can go back in time and fix things -- that's why carnivores have sharp teeth" schtick.

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Archer Opteryx, posted 05-17-2007 3:48 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 32 of 57 (400974)
05-17-2007 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by dwise1
05-17-2007 2:13 AM


Re: God Exists Within The Universe
Now why did ICANT refuse to produce those documents with God's signature.
I didn't refuse, I just ignored your request.
Because I think you are smart enough to know from all my other posts that I believe He gave them to me through the abilities and opportunities that he gave me to be able to acquire them.
And are you trying to claim that Heaven is a physical place? That it has an actual physical location? OK then, where is it?
When the day of the Lord has come, The earth as you and I know it will have melted with fervent heat, (I think science has something to say to this effect, that it will happen). Then there will be a new heaven and a new earth, there will be no need for the sun or the moon as God will be the light. On that new earth there will be the New Jerusalem the City of God, that will have streets of gold. The new heaven and earth will be Heaven. Reve. chapter 21 & 22.
2Pet 3:10 (KJS) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? {hasting...: or, hasting the coming}
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Reve 21:1 (KJS) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
They are obviously supernatural and cannot be natural.
I agree.
God the Father and God the Spirit are beings that the mind of man can not begin to understand. God the Son on the other hand was manifest in a human body so we could understand Him and He could pay man's sin debt.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
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AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by dwise1, posted 05-17-2007 2:13 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by dwise1, posted 05-17-2007 8:15 PM ICANT has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 33 of 57 (401012)
05-17-2007 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ICANT
05-17-2007 4:36 PM


Re: God Exists Within The Universe
Your biblical maunderings have absolutely no bearing on the question. Those passages refer to a future new heaven which does not yet exist. They do refer to the current heaven without establishing whether that's a physical place or a supernatural one. Waste of bandwidth.
However, as we do agree, what we are currently dealing with is supernatural, which is something with which we humans are unable of dealing. We cannot form any known-true premises about the supernatural, only repeat what we ourselves believe or have been told by other fallible humans. Therefore, we cannot logically prove anything about the supernatural.
However, logic still plays a role in theology. Even though a theology's axioms (basic premises that are accepted as being true, even though they cannot be proven) cannot be proven, you can still -- and should still -- test whether the conclusions and chains of reasoning built out from them are valid. The disadvantage is that regardless of how elegant or rigorous your logic is, you can never know for sure whether your conclusions are actually true. It's similar to navigation by dead reckoning: you can set a course and steer to it and know that you should be at a particular location, but until you physically pull your head out of the cockpit and get an actual fix, you don't really know for sure where you are. There's no way to test theology's results.
Or as the situation is described in a quote that is purported from an essay by Carl Sagan:
quote:
The Physicist and the Metaphysicist
In the 1920s, there was a dinner at which the physicist Robert W. Wood was asked to respond to a toast. This was a time when people stood up, made a toast, and then selected someone to respond. Nobody knew what toast they'd be asked to reply to, so it was a challenge for the quick-witted. In this case the toast was: "To physics and metaphysics." Now by metaphysics was meant something like philosophy -- truths that you could get to just by thinking about them. Wood took a second, glanced about him, and answered along these lines: The physicist has an idea, he said. The more he thinks it through, the more sense it makes to him. He goes to the scientific literature, and the more he reads, the more promising the idea seems. Thus prepared, he devises an experiment to test the idea. The experiment is painstaking. Many possibilities are eliminated or taken into account; the accuracy of the measurement is refined. At the end of all this work, the experiment is completed and ... the idea is shown to be worthless. The physicist then discards the idea, frees his mind (as I was saying a moment ago) from the clutter of error, and moves on to something else.
The difference between physics and metaphysics, Wood concluded, is that the metaphysicist has no laboratory.
On the positive side, in comparing theology and science, theology will tackle questions that science won't even go near. The really hard questions. The really important ones. So does philosophy, BTW. And as Jonathan Miller's TV documentary, "A Brief History of Disbelief" (No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.abriefhistoryofdisbelief.org), points out, it is philosophy, not science as is so often assumed, that has played a larger role in the gradual erosion of belief. Science is not the enemy of religion; competing philosophies are. Actually, science is only the enemy of religion if religion chooses to call it an enemy.
ICANT writes:
dwise1 writes:
Now why did ICANT refuse to produce those documents with God's signature.
I didn't refuse, I just ignored your request.
Because I think you are smart enough to know from all my other posts that I believe He gave them to me through the abilities and opportunities that he gave me to be able to acquire them.
I am and I was. Which is why I could immediately see that your claim was not truthful (EvC Forum: Evolution or Creation):
ICANT writes:
I thought I said my God had supplied everything I needed. Lets see I have a beautiful waterfront home, a 2007 Entourage van, a 2007 Nissan pickup, and a farm. They are all paid for all I have to pay is the taxes each year to the government to keep them.
By requesting to see God's signature on the titles -- prompted by your using this claim to bolster your claim that your god exists -- , I was trying to show you that your statement was not true, offering you a chance to correct it. You would not.
God did not give you those things. You did by your own work. You believe that God have given you the abilities and opportunities which led to your aquiring those things -- and that is what you should have said. However, if your god does not exist and instead it was some other god in charge or even no god at all, then you would still have had those same abilities and opportunities. The only real contribution by God (and this too regardless of whether that god exists or not) would have been the motivation and direction given to you by your beliefs and the aid and assistence of others, also motivated and directed by their beliefs, as well as the religious institutions built and run by people motivated and directed by their beliefs.
Long ago on CompuServe, there was this retired mathematician who argued fervently and tirelessly for word magick; ie, for the philosophy that what you believe to be true becomes true. I believe that there are some here who do likewise. Obviously, what we believe to be true will affect our perception of reality, but it will not affect the objective reality shared by all of us. At the same time, it is not objective reality that we deal with but rather our perception of it, regardless of how delusional that perception is.
There was, however, one thing he said which did make a lot of sense. He said that Christianity has had an overwhelming influence on the development of Western thought and culture, but that is not because Christianity is true. Rather it is because people believed it to be true. Even if Christianity were completely and utterly false, as long as the people believed it to be true, then it would have had exactly the same influence as it would have if it were actually true.
Again, as I have said, believin' don't necessarily make it so.
Keep any response on topic and addressing the position, not the person.
Take comments to the Moderation Thread.
AdminPD
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Made a link message specific. The link had ended with "m=211", which may or may not get you to the correct page, depending on how your profiles page display setup is. The link now ends with "m=217#217", which will get everone to the correct page and directly to the correct message.
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ICANT, posted 05-17-2007 4:36 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2007 12:28 AM dwise1 has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 34 of 57 (401040)
05-18-2007 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by dwise1
05-17-2007 8:15 PM


Re: God Exists Within The Universe
Again, as I have said, believin' don't necessarily make it so.
I agree with that statement.
Not believing don't necessarily make it not so either.
I believe that God created the Heavens and the Earth and everything in it. Since He created it that means it belongs to Him. Since He allowed His Son to die for my sins and I am no longer my own since I have been bought with a price I belong to God. Since I belong to God everything I have belongs to God, that includes my talent and my time.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
Take comments to the Moderation Thread.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by dwise1, posted 05-17-2007 8:15 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by dwise1, posted 05-18-2007 2:03 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 57 (401042)
05-18-2007 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by ICANT
05-16-2007 11:35 PM


Re: God Exists Within The Universe
ICANT writes:
Buz if your statement is correct then Genesis 1:1 is false. (God could not create the heaven if it was His residing place.)
Is this what you are saying?
Genesis 1:1 does not mention universe. All it says is whenever the things in the universe including the heavens and earth was created God did it. It does not specify which heavens or any specific heavens et al nor does it say all parts of heaven were created at one time. It is simply an opener for the Genesis record and day one did not begin until the Holy Spirit of God began to work on the planet earth.
ICANT writes:
I do not believe God's existence can be proven logically!
Imo, it's logical that since his book predicts so many events of world history as accurately as it has shown, this is evidence of his existence. This is corroborated by other factors relative to experience as people of faith et al.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
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AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by ICANT, posted 05-16-2007 11:35 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 36 of 57 (401052)
05-18-2007 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by ICANT
05-18-2007 12:28 AM


Re: God Exists Within The Universe
The only truly honest position that is possible is that of agnosticism. We don't know. It is not humanly possible for us to know anything about the supernatural. We cannot sense it (barring some individuals' subjective feelings that they believe is sensing the supernatural), we cannot measure it, we cannot study it directly nor even indirectly. All we have is what other people tell us they know about the supernatural, along with what has been logically deduced or speculated about those teachings.
What we end up doing after admitting that we can never know for sure is what we have to do next. Some will just give up, but I do not believe that path should be taken -- we believe in the open-ended search for truth. We decide which path to take (which, sadly, could be to give up) and then make some assumptions. To the basic question of whether or not the supernatural exists, we make our basic assumption of yes or no. If yes, then we have to make another assumption as to the nature of the supernatural. For that, about all we have are the multitude of ideas and teachings that exist, so most who choose to believe that the supernatural exists will then choose one set of those teachings.
True, the vast majority of people don't go through those steps. Rather, most of them are born into a belief system, one particular set of teachings about the supernatural; their decision was made for them by accident of birth. Many, if the society and circumstances allow it to happen, become involved with a different set of teachings as part of a conversion process.
But others, commonly raised as believers, become disaffected for a variety of reasons. A common theme I've seen in atheists' testimonials is that they had discovered that their religion or religious teachers had betrayed them or had lied to them. Have you done similar research? Have you actually tried to find out from atheists why they had deconverted? If you had, then you wouldn't be using "creation science" claims as you have been doing. I did show you that "creation science" destroys faith, but you decided to ignore that as well, at the peril of the faith of all who come in contact with you. But I guess you don't care about anybody's soul and faith except your own. There are a number of ex-Christian sites, including No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.exchristian.net/, if you have any desire to learn, which I doubt. BTW, go there to understand, not to try to re-convert them. Not only is it not received well, but you would be acting in complete and abject ignorance and failure is inevitable; to put it bluntly, they do not suffer idiots.
My path? The gods are human inventions, the result of human attempts to understand the world and the supernatural. Even your god is a human invention and would be even if such a thing as could be considered "God" did in fact exist. As you yourself pointed out, God is beyond human understanding. At the very best, what you call "God" is a human-created representation of the true God, if such actually exists. Theology, the study of the gods, is likewise flawed. At the core of many theologies is Revelation, but then the vast body of theology is human-created interpretation and speculation. I do not believe in human infallibility. I believe that most theology and religious doctrine have been created and are studied for the best of intentions, that they are sincere and honest attempts to seek the truth. But at the same time, I cannot put complete faith in any theology, nor in any of the gods. Therefore, my chosen path is non-theistic and skeptical of absolutist claims. I do not dismiss the possibility of the existence of the supernatural, though I do not entertain it either, nor do I believe that any human-created set of teachings about the supernatural could come anywhere close to being accurate.
BTW, I was Christian up to about the age of 12 or 13. I was baptised about a year before that, after years of church attendence. Guess what it was that made me stop being a Christian. I started to read the Bible. It didn't take me long to realize that I couldn't believe any of it. So, since I couldn't adhere to one of the most basic requirements of my religion, believing the Bible, I realized that I could not be a Christian, so I left. Years later, I became more familiar with the history of Christianity, which confirmed that I had made the right choice, albeit not necessarily for the right reasons. And then when I started college the "Jesus Freak" fundamentalist movement hit the area and I learned fundamentalism through friends who converted. What I learned made me extremely glad to not be a Christian. Part of that theology was early "creation science" whose claims I could immediately see were completely bogus (the story of the NASA computer detecting "Joshua's Lost Day" was part of that), so any religion that required me to believe lies and falsehoods could not ever be considered. Since then, in dealing with creationists, I have found their Christianity to also promote active lying and deception, which I had learned as being immoral but which apparently are virtues in their theology.
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AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 37 of 57 (401053)
05-18-2007 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Buzsaw
05-18-2007 12:51 AM


quote:
Imo, it's logical that since his book predicts so many events of world history as accurately as it has shown, this is evidence of his existence.
Of couse Buz's "opinion" is based on his own glaring twisting and misrepresentation of the text. He hates the real Bible - and that's all that he's truly shown.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
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AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 38 of 57 (401068)
05-18-2007 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Buzsaw
05-18-2007 12:51 AM


Re: God Exists Within The Universe
Genesis 1:1 does not mention universe.
Then is the universe outside of the heaven mentioned in Genesis 1:1?
Imo, it's logical that since his book predicts so many events of world history as accurately as it has shown, this is evidence of his existence.
Maybe I should have put a qualifier on my statement. "I do not believe God's existence can be proven logically!" To include the phrase to the natural man.
1Cor 2:14 (KJS) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
I know that to a Born again child of the King (someone that has received the Holy Spirit to lead them and guide them) it is not a problem.
I like the foretelling of electricity, the automobile, airplane, our communications systems such as we are using to discuss these things, as well as many other predictions that have come to pass already. I look forward to the many predictions that are yet to come to be.
Buz, there is one prediction that if it never comes to be that will prove what you and I believe is false.
Roma 14:11 (KJS) For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Reve 20:11 (KJS) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. {hell: or, the grave}
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
When these thing do come to be there is going to be a lot of theories that are going to be proven false.
The only problem will be, is that it is too late to correct the eternal destiny of those who held the false theories.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
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AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Buzsaw, posted 05-18-2007 12:51 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by PaulK, posted 05-18-2007 8:34 AM ICANT has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 39 of 57 (401071)
05-18-2007 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by ICANT
05-18-2007 8:12 AM


Re: God Exists Within The Universe
quote:
I like the foretelling of electricity, the automobile, airplane, our communications systems such as we are using to discuss these things, as well as many other predictions that have come to pass already. I look forward to the many predictions that are yet to come to be.
If you really beleive these then please get over to one of the Biblical prophecy topics to discuss it - or start a new one.
quote:
Buz, there is one prediction that if it never comes to be that will prove what you and I believe is false.
And if you go there you can also talk about the circumstances under which you would admit that that prophecy would "never come to be"/

This message is a reply to:
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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 40 of 57 (401072)
05-18-2007 9:03 AM


Warning - Topic
I haven't tagged everything that is off topic, so please refrain from responding to off topic portions of posts.
Per the rules: Argue the position, not the person.
Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour timeout.
Thank you Purple

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 41 of 57 (404329)
06-08-2007 5:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by AnswersInGenitals
05-13-2007 7:24 PM


god of change?
It is possible that we proceed in change and not in time. Time is man's invention. What created change?
Edited by dameeva, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 05-13-2007 7:24 PM AnswersInGenitals has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 42 of 57 (404347)
06-08-2007 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by AnswersInGenitals
05-13-2007 7:24 PM


Therefore, logical arguments and logic itself simply do not have the power or purview to prove the existence of god or anything about god.
Including this argument.
What if we do have spirits that live for eternity?
Then those spirits also exist outside of time, and to our spirits, God can prove Himself, if He so chooses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 05-13-2007 7:24 PM AnswersInGenitals has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 06-09-2007 1:37 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 150 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 43 of 57 (404538)
06-09-2007 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by riVeRraT
06-08-2007 7:37 AM


Riverrat fires some more blanks.
RiVeRrAt writes:
What if we do have spirits that live for eternity?
Then those spirits also exist outside of time, and to our spirits, God can prove Himself, if He so chooses.
A straight line in space can go from minus infinity to plus infinity with every point on that line existing in space. In the same way an eternal anything can exist from the infinite past (of time) to the infinite future (of time), and still have every instant of its existence take place in time. Eternal/immortal spirits, gods, or whatevers can exist in time. Certainly, an omnipotent god can exist in time any time he wants to.
Including this argument.
The logic of this argument does not apply to the existence of god. It applies to the limits of logical arguments. And a system of logic can certainly be used to establish its own limit of applicability. Riverrat, after all the thousands of posts that you have posted, whose illogic and shoot-from-the-hip irrationality have been carefully explained to you, I would think by now that you would have learned to put a little more thought into your missives.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by riVeRraT, posted 06-08-2007 7:37 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by riVeRraT, posted 06-10-2007 10:31 PM AnswersInGenitals has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 44 of 57 (404998)
06-10-2007 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by AnswersInGenitals
06-09-2007 1:37 AM


Re: Riverrat fires some more blanks.
Certainly, an omnipotent god can exist in time any time he wants to.
I would say reading the bible, that God used to exist within time, (or show Himself within the constraints of time) before Christ.
After Christ, our bodies became the temple, and we no longer need to go to the temple to experience God.
Jesus even mentions the Holy Spirit as the means by which God will communicate with us.
Riverrat, after all the thousands of posts that you have posted, whose illogic and shoot-from-the-hip irrationality have been carefully explained to you
There have not been thousands of posts. That is pure BS, and you know it.
I have been wrong a very few times, and will gladly admit it, which is something that most of you will not do.
The logic of this argument does not apply to the existence of god. It applies to the limits of logical arguments.
Your argument here assumes too much to be considered logical.
One is the a place where time does not exist, exists, and that God can be proven or disproven by logic.
So to me, this is not a logical set of statements. It's just thinking out loud. It's almost like pseudoscience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 06-09-2007 1:37 AM AnswersInGenitals has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Greatest I am, posted 07-23-2007 3:11 PM riVeRraT has not replied
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Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 45 of 57 (412014)
07-23-2007 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by riVeRraT
06-10-2007 10:31 PM


Re: Riverrat fires some more blanks.
If God can be everywhere then it can be said that He is every when.
Time and space are connected.
All places and times have coordinates.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by riVeRraT, posted 06-10-2007 10:31 PM riVeRraT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 07-23-2007 4:33 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
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