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Author Topic:   Book of Job -- Little help here
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 32 of 61 (233668)
08-16-2005 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Tal
08-15-2005 4:10 PM


quote:
"It is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godnot by works, so that no one can boast" Eph. 2:8-9
It's not what you do, its who you put your trust in.
Well, you can have a nice eternity with all of those rapists and murderers who converted in prison.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Tal, posted 08-15-2005 4:10 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Tal, posted 08-16-2005 1:59 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 33 of 61 (233669)
08-16-2005 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Tal
08-16-2005 9:21 AM


quote:
But, as always, everything is up to how you interpret it. Either Patch went to hell and back or his brain produced funny images because it was still active at a very low level when the rest of his cardiopulminary system had been shut down for x minutes.
Which explanation is more likely?
Which explanation required the fewest untestable assumptions?
Which one requires only natural physiology and which one requires the supernatural?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Tal, posted 08-16-2005 9:21 AM Tal has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 45 of 61 (233952)
08-17-2005 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Tal
08-16-2005 1:59 PM


Like I said.
I hope you have fun for all eternity communing with all of those rapists and child molesters who converted out of fear right before they died.
There is something seriously wrong with a values system that would reward a murdering child rapist with heaven yet condemn a loving, selfless, Buddhist monk to hell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Tal, posted 08-16-2005 1:59 PM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by randman, posted 08-17-2005 4:30 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 46 of 61 (233956)
08-17-2005 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by randman
08-17-2005 12:58 AM


Re: one can always doubt
quote:
But trying to dismiss spiritual experiences as mere psychological/chemical hallucinations is just biasness.
But similar "experiences" can be induced by chemical or physiological means.
Are those induced experiences discernable from the "real" spiritual experiences by those who experience them?
But this is off topic and needs to go to it's own thread. I'd be happy to discuss it with you. Let me know if you would like me to start a thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by randman, posted 08-17-2005 12:58 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by randman, posted 08-17-2005 4:24 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 60 of 61 (234276)
08-17-2005 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by randman
08-17-2005 4:24 PM


Re: one can always doubt
OK, I'll keep an eye out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by randman, posted 08-17-2005 4:24 PM randman has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 61 of 61 (234284)
08-17-2005 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by randman
08-17-2005 4:30 PM


Re: righteousness
quote:
A righteous Buddhist monk or any righteous person is not condemned to hell.
But if anyone rejects the sacrifice and gospel of Christ, he is no longer righteous because he is telling God that he is pure enough to not need such atonement.
Well, then, there's no such thing as a "righteous Buddhist" according to you, because Buddhists do not believe that people need to "atone" just because they exist.
Theirs would be the religion of the "good self esteem and respect for all others", in contrast to the Christian religion which seemt to be more of a religion of "lousy self esteem and yet a compulsion to make everyone else feel the same way."
All Buddhists, according to you, are going to hell, and all child rapists and murderers who "atone" just before they die are going to heaven?
quote:
Let's say you were in debtors prison years ago, and it was an awful lot of money, and I paid for you to get out, except this costs me much more than money. I took your place in fact.
Then, you get out and say, hey, I didn't need that. Rejecting the love and sacrifice of Jesus Christ is like spitting in God's face when he went to great lengths to ensure your forgiveness and blessing.
Your God sounds like he needs to have his ego stroked a lot.
God has the very human-seeming emotional frailty of being able to be offended by us puny humans?
quote:
The penalty for such a crime is great indeed, and justly so.
Only if God has a fragile ego, and also is a really bad parent.
Would you send your child to endure a horrible, agonizing, torturous vomit-indicing pain for all eternity for being merely ungrateful for something you supposedly did for them that wasn't clear that you actually did or was even believable?
We actually lock parents up for treating their children like that.
quote:
Now, the only issue then is whether the Buddhist monk has a credible witness from God, either through a person, directly, writings, or what have you so that from God's perspective, the monk knowingly rejects Christ, or should have known if his heart was right, and thus reasoning pure enough to discern the truth.
So, this still means that a selfless, peaceful Buddhist monk, who renounced all his worldly possessions and worked to help the poor his whole life, and who spread only love and kindness to all he met or had contact with would burn in Hell for eternity.
It also means that the child rapist and murderer who lived their whole utterly selfish life causing pain and anguish and horror and cruelty upon helpless children for their own sick satisfaction who THEN, right before he dies, accepts Jesus into his heart, will get to spend eternity in blissful heaven.
That is morally wrong on the face of it.
That is a perversion of justice.
quote:
I do think a wicked man not seeking after truth is judged even if he unknowingly rejects Christ because had he been following after truth, he would have "heard".
What about the rapist I mentioned above?
He's in heaven?
You can have him. I don't want to spend eternity with people like that.
I'll hang out in Hell with the Buddhists and the Hindus and the Animists and the Druids and the Muslims and the Jews.
quote:
So no one can say the monk is going to hell.
I think both you and Tal just did.
But the more important question you didn't address is the problem of the child rapists and murderers in heaven because they were "born again" before they died.
quote:
It doesn't work that way, but at the same time, rejecting Jesus Christ is a much more serious offense than you realize.
If God cares more about what we believe than how we treat each other, then he's just got too fragile an ego.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by randman, posted 08-17-2005 4:30 PM randman has not replied

  
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