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Author Topic:   Book of Job -- Little help here
Tal
Member (Idle past 5677 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 31 of 61 (233640)
08-16-2005 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by CK
08-16-2005 9:38 AM


Re: Downright rude
Yes genius, that is why I said,
Biblical accuracy of that prophecy aside
Hello?

'Now isn't it amazing. I tell you that nobody made a simple toy like that (solar system model) and you don't believe me. Yet you gaze out into the solar System - the intricate marvelous machine that is around you - and you dare say to me that no one made that. I don't believe it'. -Sir Isaac Newton

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 Message 30 by CK, posted 08-16-2005 9:38 AM CK has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 32 of 61 (233668)
08-16-2005 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Tal
08-15-2005 4:10 PM


quote:
"It is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godnot by works, so that no one can boast" Eph. 2:8-9
It's not what you do, its who you put your trust in.
Well, you can have a nice eternity with all of those rapists and murderers who converted in prison.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Tal, posted 08-15-2005 4:10 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Tal, posted 08-16-2005 1:59 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 33 of 61 (233669)
08-16-2005 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Tal
08-16-2005 9:21 AM


quote:
But, as always, everything is up to how you interpret it. Either Patch went to hell and back or his brain produced funny images because it was still active at a very low level when the rest of his cardiopulminary system had been shut down for x minutes.
Which explanation is more likely?
Which explanation required the fewest untestable assumptions?
Which one requires only natural physiology and which one requires the supernatural?

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 Message 28 by Tal, posted 08-16-2005 9:21 AM Tal has not replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5677 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 34 of 61 (233693)
08-16-2005 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by nator
08-16-2005 12:12 PM


Well, you can have a nice eternity with all of those rapists and murderers who converted in prison.
Moses was a murderer, David was an adulterer, Zachius was a tax collector (little humor there), the theif on the cross was a theif and a murderer, Solomon had 700 wives (and he was the wisest man ever...uhhuh...). Sin is sin, and we are all guilty of it. It is just a matter of whether you accept the free gift Jesus bought for you by His sacrifice.

'Now isn't it amazing. I tell you that nobody made a simple toy like that (solar system model) and you don't believe me. Yet you gaze out into the solar System - the intricate marvelous machine that is around you - and you dare say to me that no one made that. I don't believe it'. -Sir Isaac Newton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by nator, posted 08-16-2005 12:12 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-16-2005 2:23 PM Tal has not replied
 Message 45 by nator, posted 08-17-2005 7:42 AM Tal has not replied
 Message 47 by ramoss, posted 08-17-2005 8:13 AM Tal has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 35 of 61 (233704)
08-16-2005 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Tal
08-15-2005 4:10 PM


faith without works is dead.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 36 of 61 (233705)
08-16-2005 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Tal
08-16-2005 1:59 PM


solomon's sin wasn't marrying 700 women, his sin was bringing the gods of foreign women into the kingdom and worshipping them. almost all the patriarchs had multiple wives. there is no cause to think this is sin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Tal, posted 08-16-2005 1:59 PM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by arachnophilia, posted 08-16-2005 6:11 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 37 of 61 (233796)
08-16-2005 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Tal
08-16-2005 9:21 AM


nde's
Doesn't fly with me (I love puns). I know test pilots that have gone through G-lock, and its nothing like what is described to me by the people that experienced NDEs
tunnel vision? bright lights? flashbacks? no. doesn't sound like an nde at all.
But, as always, everything is up to how you interpret it. Either Patch went to hell and back or his brain produced funny images because it was still active at a very low level when the rest of his cardiopulminary system had been shut down for x minutes.
which one sounds like a more reasonabl explanation to you, tal? we know oxygen deprived brains hallucinate. that's why kids sniff glue. the faith here is completely redundant. we don't need miracles and the supernatural to explain completely banal natural occurances.

אָרַח

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 Message 28 by Tal, posted 08-16-2005 9:21 AM Tal has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 38 of 61 (233798)
08-16-2005 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by macaroniandcheese
08-16-2005 2:23 PM


solomon's sin wasn't marrying 700 women, his sin was bringing the gods of foreign women into the kingdom and worshipping them.
oh, and cutting his hair. don't forget that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-16-2005 2:23 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-16-2005 11:39 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 39 of 61 (233801)
08-16-2005 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Tal
08-16-2005 9:27 AM


Re: questions.
Well, I'm not going to argue with you on whether or not you think Satan was the serpent or not.
no, of course not. that would be a little too close to the topic at hand, wouldn't it?
hey, you know what? there's a serpent in job. he's a really big powerful, special and probably mythological serpent, too. and he's not satan. satan is described as "among the sons of god." this may or may not mean he is one of that class -- which are possibly angelic.
and here's the quirky bit. satan disappears from the book of job. in chapters 1 and 2, satan is trying to destroy job to test his faith in god. but at the end of the book god himself shows up and effectively claims responsibility. and how dare job question god's actions -- not satan's actions. so who's doing the testing?
in fact, the whole bit about satan even being in any of the bible talking to anyone kind of refutes that he could be the serpent. see, the serpent gets in trouble by opening his mouth. he says something he shouldn't have said. god punishes the serpent by giving him an oral fixation, eating dirt. genesis 3 contains, effectively, the explanation for why snakes lick the ground in front of them: to shut them up.
Satan still wishes Isreal destroyed because it is still God's chosen nation.
and yet this is COMPLETELY INCONSISTENT with the book of job. satan in job isn't trying to kill jews or destroy the jewish nation. he is testing the faith of a single man. satan in the ot (and you'll only find him a few times) is never trying to destroy, except to further his goal of testing. and he never acts out of accordance with god's will. (see the bit above about god justifying satan's test)

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Tal, posted 08-16-2005 9:27 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Tal, posted 08-16-2005 6:47 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5677 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 40 of 61 (233817)
08-16-2005 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by arachnophilia
08-16-2005 6:21 PM


Re: questions.
Hello...history? Need a lesson from World War II? Maybe a lesson of Isreal's existance in the last 50 years and what her neighbors want to do to her?
Really, how can you ignore those facts?
Other than that, your theology of satan is way off. Study up a bit more.

'Now isn't it amazing. I tell you that nobody made a simple toy like that (solar system model) and you don't believe me. Yet you gaze out into the solar System - the intricate marvelous machine that is around you - and you dare say to me that no one made that. I don't believe it'. -Sir Isaac Newton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by arachnophilia, posted 08-16-2005 6:21 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by arachnophilia, posted 08-16-2005 6:51 PM Tal has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 41 of 61 (233819)
08-16-2005 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Tal
08-16-2005 6:47 PM


Re: questions.
Hello...history? Need a lesson from World War II? Maybe a lesson of Isreal's existance in the last 50 years and what her neighbors want to do to her?
Really, how can you ignore those facts?
i'm not. why are you ignoring mine, that are actually ON TOPIC:
Other than that, your theology of satan is way off. Study up a bit more.
an excellent refutation, tal. now howabout you actually argue your point. because frankly i *HAVE* studied up a bit more. and apparently a lot more than you have. heck, your analysis is not even consistent with a base reading of the very book we're discussing. have you even read job?
i've provided textual evidence of why you're wrong. i'm sorry if they taught you different in church, but i'm concerned with what the bible actually says, not theology.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Tal, posted 08-16-2005 6:47 PM Tal has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 42 of 61 (233899)
08-16-2005 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by arachnophilia
08-16-2005 6:11 PM


no that was sampson or samson. i never remember and i'm too lazy to check.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by arachnophilia, posted 08-16-2005 6:11 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 43 of 61 (233918)
08-17-2005 12:58 AM


one can always doubt
But trying to dismiss spiritual experiences as mere psychological/chemical hallucinations is just biasness.
We are gifted with an intuitive ability to "hear" as the Bible says, to understand that something is real, and that's where faith is born, and though being "a beleiver" in the general sense probably entails being more prone naturally to erring on the side of believing people and reports, and it can take a bit to balance that out, when one couples that basic trust with intuitive knowledge and assessment of that knowledge with reason, then faith matures and becomes more discerning and less doubtful.

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by nator, posted 08-17-2005 7:50 AM randman has replied
 Message 49 by ramoss, posted 08-17-2005 8:49 AM randman has replied
 Message 51 by deerbreh, posted 08-17-2005 10:23 AM randman has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 44 of 61 (233930)
08-17-2005 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by macaroniandcheese
08-16-2005 11:39 PM


wow. i don't know how i did that.
either way, i wasn't being totally serious -- samson didn't exactly cut his own hair. i was more making fun ej, because i accused him of sins earlier that included getting haircuts.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-16-2005 11:39 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 45 of 61 (233952)
08-17-2005 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Tal
08-16-2005 1:59 PM


Like I said.
I hope you have fun for all eternity communing with all of those rapists and child molesters who converted out of fear right before they died.
There is something seriously wrong with a values system that would reward a murdering child rapist with heaven yet condemn a loving, selfless, Buddhist monk to hell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Tal, posted 08-16-2005 1:59 PM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by randman, posted 08-17-2005 4:30 PM nator has replied

  
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