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Author Topic:   Nature of a GOD?
sidelined
Member (Idle past 4700 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 1 of 32 (121558)
07-03-2004 4:20 AM


I am bringing in this topic as an offshoot of "What is the I in ID" discussion as it will help flesh out some conceptions that I think need adressing.

God is in the Christian sphere the motive force behind the creation of our world that we deal with around us and the universe that surrounds our world. Now it is often bantied around that God exists outside of time and space which is a statement that I think deserves some explanation since one wonders how God communicates with people in his creation and also supposedly enacts disasters or stops the Sun in its movement across the sky, you get the picture. These actions require the ability to manipulate the time and space that He is said to exist outside of.Now either He does not live outside of time and space or the material world necessarily operates on its own.You cannot have it both ways correct?

Now please do not give the lame excuse that God can do whatever he wants since that has explanatory power at all.


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AdminNosy
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
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Message 2 of 32 (121559)
07-03-2004 4:26 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 136 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 3 of 32 (121574)
07-03-2004 6:27 AM


doesn't manipulation of space and time one the level god is accused of neccessitate existing outside of it?

(i do think, btw, that the natural is fully capable of functioning on its own without god. any good designer would make a self-sustaining system, rather than having to watch every aspect of it all the time, right? i'm also fairly certain creation does not require a creator, if only because of the laws of probability)


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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 3698 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 4 of 32 (121600)
07-03-2004 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
07-03-2004 4:20 AM


God is not BOUND by time as we are. He is not bound by spacial dimensions as we are. In other words, God doesn't have an age and he doesn't have a size and form. He can create on for himself and he did so in JC. He is everywhere and everytime at once. He is bound only by his own character. It is not as though he is absent from space and time. He transcends space and time and has the ability to view everything at once. E.g. a person standing on the street corner watching a parade only sees things as they come along. A person up in a blimp overlooking the parade can see the beginning and end. This is probably where the misconception that he is really OUTSIDE of time comes from; he is only outside the constrictions of space and time.

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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 3698 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 5 of 32 (121602)
07-03-2004 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by arachnophilia
07-03-2004 6:27 AM


creation does not require a creator

haha... now thats ironic. Perhaps you should say, "existence does not require a creator."

if only because of the laws of probability

Who made the laws of probability and ensures that they stay in place? Surely, since we exist without a creator there must be infinite univeres with completely different laws; ones where there is no probability and everything happens for a reason? Hmm...


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jar
Member
Posts: 33187
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 6 of 32 (121610)
07-03-2004 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
07-03-2004 4:20 AM


JMHO & YMMV
You bring up some very good points that do need to be addressed.

Now either He does not live outside of time and space or the material world necessarily operates on its own.You cannot have it both ways correct?

Not exactly. I think it would be more reasonable to say that time and space exist within GOD.

GOD is a matter of belief and faith. You seem to want to bound GOD within some preconcieved limitations on what is possible, or not possible. But that is simply not possible except in an environment that says GOD has limitations.

Many of us would say that GOD is time and space, and that he existed before time and space and will exist after time and space. That may be hard to grasp but IMHO, adequately describes the Nature of a GOD.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 3698 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 7 of 32 (121676)
07-03-2004 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
07-03-2004 12:04 PM


Re: JMHO & YMMV
You seem to want to bound GOD within some preconcieved limitations on what is possible, or not possible. But that is simply not possible except in an environment that says GOD has limitations.

Yea! I found something to agree with Jar on.

Many of us would say that GOD is time and space, and that he existed before time and space and will exist after time and space.

This adequately describes it for most people, but I like to try to stretch my mind farther. To say he IS time and space is not quite right, but to say the he transcends time and space is right. Obviously it's only an approximation because you are using time words "before" and "after" to explain it. Since God made us inside time and we will live forever, then there will be lots more happenings than just this heaven and earth, and perhaps more than the next heaven and earth. As it says, "no mind has conceived of what lay in store for those who love Him"

He may abolish all known dimensions and create completely new ones.

So, perhaps God's creation is an infinite series of adventures in which God walks with us through them. Of course since, time could be abolished and a different kind of time created, who knows what it will be like. Maybe there will even be more creatures with free-will created and they will go through sin and redemption as well and join the ranks of humans and angels. It's hard to imagine, but who knows?


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sidelined
Member (Idle past 4700 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 8 of 32 (121705)
07-04-2004 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
07-03-2004 12:04 PM


Re: JMHO & YMMV
jar

You seem to want to bound GOD within some preconcieved limitations on what is possible, or not possible. But that is simply not possible except in an environment that says GOD has limitations.

I would not say that is the case,however,we are having difficulty here in our clarity of what constitutes God.In your second paragraph you write.

Many of us would say that GOD is time and space, and that he existed before time and space and will exist after time and space. That may be hard to grasp but IMHO, adequately describes the Nature of a GOD.

In the first quote you are implying that God has no limitations but,in the second quote you tell me that you equate God as being time and space. That,my humble friend,is subject to limitaions that we observe in our investigations of the world.Nevertheless,God as an entity is,if we are stating that God is time and space, brings up the same question.

How may God manipulate the time and space He supposedly is and simpler questions such as how does God think or anticipate or verbalize His instructions to humans? Some of these are easily dropped into the realm of faith but I personally find that to be inadequate. It is the very nature of proper inquiry not to allow that which is possible to investigate to simply slip into areas that insulate our need for comfort from what may be the harsh light of reality.


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jar
Member
Posts: 33187
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 9 of 32 (121708)
07-04-2004 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by sidelined
07-04-2004 12:05 AM


Re: JMHO & YMMV
Yes, we have gone over this before. IIRC I went on to say that it is more appropriate to say that Time and Space reside within GOD.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 4700 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 10 of 32 (121987)
07-05-2004 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
07-04-2004 12:16 AM


Re: JMHO & YMMV
jar

I went on to say that it is more appropriate to say that Time and Space reside within GOD.

Ok.I do understand that. I am actually trying to come to grips with your impression of God as an entity that molds the universe as He sees fit while at the same time is seperate from it and therefore leaves no physical trace we can observe.

What is the nature of the universe that you would require the extra addition of a God such that no amount of probing or investigation will reveal Him and yet at the same time inflict on a good number of people the serious insistence from them of Him being real and therefore affecting physical responses in them?


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jar
Member
Posts: 33187
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 11 of 32 (121991)
07-05-2004 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by sidelined
07-05-2004 1:12 AM


Re: JMHO & YMMV
I could just point you to...

There are Jews in the world, there are Buddhists,
there are Hindus and Mormons and then
there are those that follow Mohammed -but-
I've never been one of them.
I am a Roman Catholic
and have been since before I was born,
and the one thing they say about Catholics is
they'll take you as soon as you're warm.
You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on, you're
a Catholic the moment dad came
...Because...

...but I wont.

you ask...

What is the nature of the universe that you would require the extra addition of a God such that no amount of probing or investigation will reveal Him and yet at the same time inflict on a good number of people the serious insistence from them of Him being real and therefore affecting physical responses in them?

Well, they's them's and I'm me's.

I happpen to believe that there is a GOD. By definition, that GOD is something that has certain characteristics. IMHO, among those are that he created the rules that govern what has happened at the most basic level. Since all that we can see and measure (including ourselves and the very universe we have descerned) are merely the products of those basic rules, we cannot see beyond that point where those rules first came into existence.

I do think that there may well be miracles that we can point to, but they are few and usually unmentioned. One such example is Bread. But I do not see GOD molding the universe as he sees fit. At the most, as in the case of Bread, he may on occasion give it a nudge.

Nudge...nudge...eh?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 4700 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 12 of 32 (121993)
07-05-2004 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
07-05-2004 1:33 AM


Re: JMHO & YMMV
jar
I happpen to believe that there is a GOD. By definition, that GOD is something that has certain characteristics. IMHO, among those are that he created the rules that govern what has happened at the most basic level.

OK. This will need to dig in deeper.To create the "rules" {whatever those are!} what means would He use to implement them? As a belief in God must in some sense arouse in you an impression of His existence I am asking you to explain how the {bbodily[/b] sensation of the impression is instilled within yourself without physical means being implemented by God?

This message has been edited by sidelined, 07-05-2004 12:46 AM


You see a book lying on a table. You know there's a force due to gravity acting on that book. If you take that force (on the book and due to gravity) as the "action," what then is the "reaction" as required by Newton's third law?

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jar
Member
Posts: 33187
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 13 of 32 (121995)
07-05-2004 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by sidelined
07-05-2004 1:45 AM


Re: JMHO & YMMV
We've been over that and I doubt you'll like my answers any more this time than last time or the time before.

To create the "rules" {whatever those are!} what means would He use to implement them?

Well, we are still learning the rules. Natural Selection is one. Evolution is another. As we learn more we get a better glimpse of what the rules are. One hundred fifty years ago I would have said it was gravity, light and electromagnitism. Seventy years ago I would have added the Strong and Weak Nuclear forces. General Relativity appeared to be one.

Who knows, as we learn more about the rules, IMHO, we will simply find that the finger of GOD wrote with a finer hand than we ever imagined. My bet is that as we learn more about Strings and Branes we will find that they are still but gross representations of what HE wrote.

And I don't know what means HE used to implement them. HE thought them is as good at the moment as anything else.

As a belief in God must in some sense arouse in you an impression of His existence I am asking you to explain how the {bbodily(sic) sensation of the impression is instilled within yourself without physical means being implemented by God?

My Impression of GOD is simply that. It is internal and no more instilled in me by outside force than any other idea, knowledge or belief. It is the result of observation and reason.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 4700 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 14 of 32 (122074)
07-05-2004 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
07-05-2004 2:02 AM


Re: JMHO & YMMV
jar

Who knows, as we learn more about the rules, IMHO, we will simply find that the finger of GOD wrote with a finer hand than we ever imagined. My bet is that as we learn more about Strings and Branes we will find that they are still but gross representations of what HE wrote.

And I don't know what means HE used to implement them. HE thought them is as good at the moment as anything else.

I see that the confusion is mine in that I am relating the words such as "finger of God,"finer hand" and "He thought them" as being meant to say that you view God as actually having a hand or a finger or a thought which are all themselves manifestations of a physical reality,a material existence.

I disagree simply because my impression shows me that without invoking God as a Prime mover we arrive at a greater sense of completion in the world.

I find myself in agreement with Feynman on this when he said:

"It doesn't seem to me that this fantastically marvelous universe, this tremendous range of time and space and different kinds of animals, and all the different planets, and all these atoms with all their motions and so on, all this complicated thing can merely be a stage so that God can watch human beings struggle for good and evil, which is the view that religion has.
The stage is too big for the drama."

And we now address this point.

My Impression of GOD is simply that. It is internal and no more instilled in me by outside force than any other idea, knowledge or belief. It is the result of observation and reason.

Again it is only,perhaps,that I am unable to share in the acceptance that the universe is,through observation and reason, evidence of a God without being able to explore the means by which a God would do these things.But that is just me. I think we are only differing in the sense that I do not have that internal impression.Anyway it is good jousting with you on this.Perhaps we might hear from others on their views of this.Have a good day.


You see a book lying on a table. You know there's a force due to gravity acting on that book. If you take that force (on the book and due to gravity) as the "action," what then is the "reaction" as required by Newton's third law?

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ParadoxScientist
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 32 (126703)
07-22-2004 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by sidelined
07-05-2004 8:41 AM


Re: JMHO & YMMV
yea err sry i havnt read all the replys so i dont know if some one has said this yet but here is MY opinion.....
I am NOT a Christian man, or a religious man for that matter, however i believe that God is not a creature, or any Centient being that can think and etc. I believe that the Universe that we live in, the Laws of Nature, is God. I believe that God is infact just an Enormous amount of Energy that created our Universe. Take in this bit of info, what both the bible consideres the creation of the universe, and Scientists believe is the creation, is basically having Matter simply appear or be created out of nothing, simply matter just, coming out of empty space. Now both Science and Religion basically believe in the same thing, only the Scientists refer to this as a chemical reaction of enormous proportions knows as "The Big Bang", while the Bible refers to an Entity, "God", being responsible for the random creation of matter out of nothing. Now, note that 2 years ago, if any one has read Angels and Demons you will know this, that at the European research facility known as CERN, in Geneva, Switcherland, the scientists converged and incredible focused ray of protons with an opposite ray of particles inside the worlds largest particle accelerator, smashing the rays together at amazing force.
And, the result, one of the most stunning Scientific moments,.....matter began to start appearing out of nowhere, except it was not regular matter, it was a substance known as "Anti-Matter", in short, a miniature "Big Bang" was created, literally, those scientists were like, hence "LIKE", what u might refer to as a "God".
So, perhaps God was just a large amount of Energy, or perhaps God was just a being, like a scientist, from a MUCH larger Universe, and "God" will just keep becoming races of beings who eventually become technologically advanved that they create a smaller universe, creating an endless chain of "Creations"
.........sorry that was a long response, i have lots of time today....

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