Atheists have less reason to continue living?

Oh, I get it. You just don't actually know the meaning of the words you're using. Gotcha.

On the subject of intellectual dishonesty...Did anyone else find it highly ironic that, over in another thread, theists are arguing that atheists reject God because they want to lead lives free of moral accountability, but over here, we have theists arguing that atheists are intellectually dishonest because they don't lead lives free of moral accountability?Which is it, guys? Are atheists immoral, or are they not?

Why should I fear death? As I said the act of dying could be painful and unplreasant, but I don't see actually being dead as being anything to be feared at all. Non-existence wasn't anything to be feared before I was born afterall.

Okay - I'm jumping in with both feet after only having read the first couple of posts... sorry if the topic has moved on a lot. I didn't get much of a response the last time I tried to make this argument, so maybe its pretty weak. I'll have another go though, and maybe someone can tell my why its unreasonable.Is far as I can understand, the reason why you think that God is necessary for morality is because, without fail, he holds people to account for their actions. He also doles out punishments and rewards according to those actions, and he always gets it right.I think that if this is how things work, its potentially a really good system for stopping people from doing bad things, although it hasn't worked so well in the past; people who believe in God have been known to do bad things on numerous occasions.Its my contention that morality can still function when the arbiter isn't totally infallable like God. What about when the arbiter is society? It works in the same way: it has its eyes and ears open for transgressive or dangerous behaviour, it punishes. It doesn't get it right 100% of the time, but it instills a sufficient fear in the majority of the population to allow society to function. And that's it, isn't it?

Hi happy. Wow! I haven't been in town for a spell to be aware of this thread. I see it's pipin hot. The readers need to understand that my statement which you quoted in your OP applied ONLY TO DESPONDENT ATHIESTS WHO BECOME IN A STATE OF HOPELESSNESS DUE TO UNPLEASANT AND TOUGH CIRCUMSTANCES. This message has been edited by buzsaw, 11-02-2004 12:25 PM

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

Hi buz, I was amazed at how fast this went too! The topic was 6 pages in before I even noticed it had been moved from the PNT board. I'm aware you were refering to depressed atheists too, but it seems that the thread moved onto morality after about 2 posts anyway. Oh well! lolThis message has been edited by happy_atheist, 11-02-2004 12:51 PM

Surely all that stops a theist from doing anything naughty is a fear of reprisal... an infinite, flaming, brimstone stick of doom. Is this not the case? Can you clarify?Cheers

Has Mr. Shackelford left us? I regret it if he has, I was looking forward to his response to my post #95 in this thread?If you are still out there, Rustyshackelford, I invite you to reply to me.

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If I could take any woman I wanted, and be certain of no reprisals, yes, I would.

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That's pretty damn scary. So you're saying the only thing keeping you from rape is fear of punishment from God? No empathy, no care for her feelings, no self-discipline? Just keeping in line because you don't want to get the big guy mad? Wow... just, wow... That's a sad way to live.

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Don't lie to yourself.......because you would too. It's nature.

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There's nature and then there's human nature. I am the type of person who cares deeply about what others think about me, among other things, and I can't stand knowing that I've hurt someone, even accidentally. But according to you I would rape a woman because I could and there was no punishment to stop me? I'm sorry, that just isn't "logical".

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I don't keep Christ's commandments for fear of reprisal, I keep Christ's commandments because I love Christ.

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Um... you just said, "If I could take any woman I wanted, and be certain of no reprisals, yes, I would." Tell me, then, if this has nothing to do with fear of reprisal, where in Christ's teachings does it say, "Take any woman you want"?As for the rest of that post, well, don't make the mistake of defining all atheists as the "rebellious Nietzschian teenager" types. Some simply believe there is no God because... they actually believe there is no God. Your arguments about nihilism and "survival of the fittest" defining how we should live reek of stereotypes. I'm somewhat surprised you haven't finished off the trinity by mentioning we deny God simply because we don't want to be restricted by morals, yet. Maybe I just missed it.Could you do me a favor and say how you define logic? You say in Message 77 that the only absolute to an atheist is logic. This seems to be the crux of your argument that we are "intellectually dishonest"; however, that is not the only absolute to me, and I am an atheist. As a matter of fact, it's not an absolute to me at all - it just makes more sense to me to explain the world based on what I observe rather than what a millenia-old book says. Logic is above blind faith to me - that doesn't mean it's an absolute, let alone the only absolute to me. Why do I need an absolute, anyway? I admit, I'm an atheist based more on philosophy more than science, but I don't think either type would base their life on logic alone, if that's what you mean by "absolute".

Rusty,Waaaay back in post 15 you accused Dac Carroll of having forms of evil appealing to him. Perhaps you could just do the honest thing & list them, & when you can't, because let's face it, you know norhing about Dan, concede defeat on this point.You are engaging in a childish goalpost moving session, they aren't even on the pitch any more.Mark

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

so, we are illusion. Reality is an illusion, although a very persistant one.And why would you think the fullness is 'pointless'. It is not pointless to the individual involved, and THEY are the ones that the point is relative to. Yes, it is an illusion, but it is an illusion built upon hundreds of millions of years of evolution.I mean, why should a life have more purpose if the 'purpose' is believed to be imposed by without, and taken from some books written by some bronze age goatherders, and modified from some pagan's who were fighting an empire. Particularly since you have no actual evidence of this super being who supposedly has given you a purpose,I mean, with lack of any objective evidence that not only this superbeing exists, but if it did, what exactly the purpose is, how is
that any LESS of an illusion than an atheist who finds their own purpose?You might have these warm fuzzy feeling and convictions about god.
How can you demonstrate that this warm fuzzy feelings about god are
any less of an illusion than the convictions of an atheist?

WHy is nihilism the 'logical conclusion' of atheism in uncivilised
conditions? SHow your research. SHow your logic. Show how this is
different than any form of theism.You are making a rather strong claim. Back it up.

And, what assumptions are you using for this 'There is no such thing as lovoe from a logical point of view'?Come on now. I can think if a perfectly good and logical reasons for love. The bonding is a perfect measure for evolution to have a parent take care of it's offspring to insure it's survival..and increase the
chances of passing on it's genes. It is a mechanism to insure couples stay togather to insure the survivial of their offspring. It is a mechanism where couples can surivive hard times togather, and promote
the group society as a whole (I.e. pack/gaggle,pod, whatever)

Oh??Any objective evidence that 'CHrist commanded you to love her'?? The objective evidence is not in a book written 2000 years ago, or your warm fuzzy feelings.

Rusty Well, if the shoe fits.
Why would you think that a lack of god {assuming on your part as devil's advocate that god is imaginary} means that a person could hold no hope.
When my daughter was a year old she developed a syndrome that doctors do not have a clear grasp of concerning cause and her little body ballooned out because her kidneys had been plugged from this disease. The result was that toxins were being deposited in the interstitial tissues of her body. The doctors treat such a syndrome by addressing the symptoms with aggresive therapy.When I was not working at the mill I was at the hospital comforting her. My wife would take over when she was off work and if one of us would be unable to be there then the other would sleep at the hospital and go straight to work from there.We did this the entire time she was there. She was not alone once while she was in hospital.The whole time I was there I was hoping for the best but I also was prepared for the worst in that I was aware that it could happen.Guess what? She turned out ok and we took her home.Were we selfish becuse we wanted our daughter to live? Probably, in part, so why would that be a bad thing?My beliefs never once entered into consideration of the situation. So I ask you where do you get the bullshit idea that atheism is without hope? LOL! Hardly.The reason for existence is, for myself, the thriving of my family and their wellbeing.If the reason I actually do it is because I enjoy having my family happy and following their own paths through life come what may then I am guilty.That there is no reward at the end for my efforts means what? That it was all pointless? No since my family will know that I loved them completely.So we cease to exist and leave the race to be run by others. Wahhh!! I want my mommy! How assinine is that attitude.The ride is short the responsibility great.Carpe diem buddy.There are many ways to make it satisfactory and not one of them involves isolation from the challenges of life.As a great man once put it.

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"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
--Don Hirschberg