Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 86 (8936 total)
34 online now:
Captcass, DrJones*, dwise1 (3 members, 31 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: ssope
Post Volume: Total: 861,614 Year: 16,650/19,786 Month: 775/2,598 Week: 21/251 Day: 21/23 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   What Is A Christian (Remix)
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 4 of 133 (425875)
10-04-2007 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 11:35 AM


Nicene Creed and get it right if you are going to post my beliefs.
First:

As far as jar's beliefs, which is kinda rude to be discussing, I read him write that he thought that it didn't matter if Jesus was God or not. I think that being a Christian pretty much means that Jesus' divinity does matter, so its hard for me mix that belief with those of the True Christian(TM).

Let's try to get it right.

I have said two things.

One that "The message of Jesus would be valid even if Jesus had only been myth and tales told around the campfire."

I have also said that while Jesus lived here among us, I believe he was fully human.

Last, look at the Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Made man.

And catholic does not mean Roman Catholic, but rather inclusive.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 11:35 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-23-2007 3:49 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 6 of 133 (425878)
10-04-2007 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Thugpreacha
10-04-2007 8:50 AM


What is a Christian?
If someone is accepted as a member of some officially sanctioned Christian Church, what else could they be called but a Christian?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-04-2007 8:50 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 12:33 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 11 of 133 (425887)
10-04-2007 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 12:33 PM


Re: What is a Christian?
Couldn't a non-Christian be accepted as a member of some officially sanctioned Christian Church?

LOL

Kinda like being a Mason and a Moose?

By definition if you are accepted as a member of some organization you are a member of that organization.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 12:33 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Brian, posted 10-04-2007 12:49 PM jar has not yet responded
 Message 24 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 2:47 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 25 of 133 (425923)
10-04-2007 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 2:47 PM


Re: What is a Christian?
So you define Christian as being a member of a Christian organization regardless of what you believe or how you act.

Well, no! Like any club, Christianity has a Member's Bylaws. Those are laid out in the Primary Creeds. To be a member of the club you need to agree with the bylaws.

But behavior is unrelated. There is a difference between being a Christian and being Christ-Like.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 2:47 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 3:03 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 30 of 133 (425932)
10-04-2007 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 3:03 PM


Re: What is a Christian?
So you pretty much gotta believe that Jesus is divine.

But if you are honest, you also admit that is without support and simply a belief.

But it is still only relevant to being a member of the club. It has nothing to do with whether it is true or not.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 3:03 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 3:46 PM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 36 of 133 (425941)
10-04-2007 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 3:35 PM


On the way
I agree with Ringo.

But we are talking several unrelated subjects here.

One is "What is a Christian". That question has absolutely nothing to do with getting to the Father or salvation or Christ-like behavior. It is really simple. What is a Christian.

And if someone is a member of a Christian Church then they are, by definition, a Cristian.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 3:35 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 3:59 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 42 of 133 (425947)
10-04-2007 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 3:59 PM


Re: On the way
And we've already agreed that being a member is not enough:

No, we have not. Being a member includes abiding by the club rules.

The club doesn't make sure that you agree with the bylaws before they accept you into it so you could be in the club and not accept the bylaws.

Maybe in SOME chapters of the club. But in every Christian Church I have even attended, the rules, the "I believes", are recited at every service.

Being a part of a Christian group is not what makes a True Christian. Sure, that makes you a christian, by defintion of being in the club. But that doesn't make you a Christian as in a follower of Christ.

Yawn.

Sorry but being a follower of Christ, what ever that means, that has NOTHING to do with being a Christian. You even admit in that very same paragraph that "Sure, that makes you a christian, by defintion of being in the club".

Sorry, but if you are in the club by definition you are a True Christian.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 3:59 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 4:21 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 47 of 133 (425953)
10-04-2007 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 4:17 PM


Re: Just joining...man this thread moves quick!
Peter walked on water.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 4:17 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 4:23 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 53 of 133 (425961)
10-04-2007 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 4:21 PM


Re: On the way
Someone could lie about their beliefs to get into the club. If they don't really believe the bylaws then they're not really a Christian, no matter if the club lets them in or not.

As long as they consistently lie about the bylaws, they are still members and so Christians.

It means that you try to live your life as he prescribed and that you believe in him. And that has EVERYTHING to do with being a Christian.

It still has NOTHING to do with being a "Christian".

Yeah, by definition of being in the club. But that is not how a True Christian is defined.

Ah, the No True Scotsman fallacy rears its head.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 4:21 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 4:42 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 54 of 133 (425962)
10-04-2007 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 4:23 PM


Re: Just joining...man this thread moves quick!
But did he raise somebody from the dead?

Jesus said that the Apostles would do such miracles. And in addition, Jesus never claimed that he did the miracles but rather God working through him.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 4:23 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 4:49 PM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 62 of 133 (425974)
10-04-2007 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 4:42 PM


Re: On the way
Define "Christian".

Wait, let me guess: "Christian" = a person who is in a Christian club.

Right.

Well, this thread is about what a True Christian is. Not what a Club Christian is. They are different things.

Wrong. The title of the thread is "What Is A Christian (Remix)" and no place in the Op does the word "True" even appear.

So what makes a True Christian? Believing the Creed, right? Not just being a part of the club (which doesn't require actually believing the creed).

Sorry, but being in the club requires that you subscribe to the bylaws, the "I believes".


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 4:42 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 5:00 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 68 of 133 (425983)
10-04-2007 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 5:00 PM


Re: On the way
No it doesn't. How does it?

How does the club test that you honestly subscribe to the bylaws and are not just saying that you do?

It doesn't.

What are the requirements that you actually subscribe to the bylaws and are not just saying that you do?

There are none.

A non-Christian could be in the club.

Sorry, but to be in the club all that is needed is that you subscribe to the bylaws and that the club accept that you have done so. If you are a member of the club called "Christians" then you are a "Christian".

I just don't see any other way around it.

There is no way that you can actually test whether someone really believes the "I believes" or simply so asserts.

As to "True Christian" being implied, it just plain ain't there. Now if Phat wants to change it to a discussion of "True Christian" then fine, but don't pretend it was actually the topic.

If you folk want to play the "No True Scotsman" game, then enjoy. I have no time for that.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 5:00 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 5:22 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 71 of 133 (425987)
10-04-2007 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 5:22 PM


Re: On the way
An evil anti-Christian atheist, bent on destoying Christianity, could join the club by simply stating the "I believes".

If they assert that they believe the bylaws, how can you tell they are an "evil anti-Christian atheist?"

They are still a member in good standing of the club, "Christians."


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 5:22 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 5:33 PM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 78 of 133 (426137)
10-05-2007 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by ringo
10-05-2007 12:03 PM


Saved, not Christian
Jesus disagreed with you. He said that many who think they were in on the ground floor by saying, "Lord! Lord!", will not be accepted - and many that don't expect to be accepted will be.

The point is, many non-Christians will be saved while many Christians will be damned.

But salvation is a different issue that club membership.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 10-05-2007 12:03 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 10-05-2007 12:27 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 80 of 133 (426147)
10-05-2007 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by ringo
10-05-2007 12:27 PM


Re: Saved, not Christian
I agree with that distinction.

They are different. A very large number of Christians just don't seem to understand what Jesus message was, and so even though they are Christians, club members, don't seem to follow his teachings, while lots of folk who are not in the club, do follow Jesus teachings.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 10-05-2007 12:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 10-05-2007 12:44 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019