Message 46 of 133 (425952) 10-04-2007 4:17 PM

Reply to: Message 41 by Phat 10-04-2007 4:02 PM

This is off topic, but "only humans" can't walk on water and raise people from the dead.

Message 48 of 133 (425954) 10-04-2007 4:18 PM

There are two kinds of masons/Masons:

1. The Mason who is a member of a club, who goes to meetings, performs rituals, etc.

2. The mason who works with bricks and mortar.

A Mason isn't necessarily a mason and a mason isn't necessarily a Mason.

A Mason has no business telling a mason, "You're No True Mason," and a mason has no business telling a Mason, "You're no true mason."

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Similarly, there are Christians who belong to a chapter of the Christian club. One Christian has no business telling another Christian that his chapter is unaccredited.

There are also christians who work with the bricks and mortar of christianity on a daily basis.

Christians have no business telling christians that they're No True Christians, even if they're not official members of the club. And christians have no business telling Christians that they're no true christians even if they don't work with the bricks and mortar of christianity.

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(To further confuse the issue, I capitalize both types of Christian out of respect.)

Message 49 of 133 (425957) 10-04-2007 4:21 PM

Reply to: Message 42 by jar 10-04-2007 4:09 PM

Someone could lie about their beliefs to get into the club. If they don't really believe the bylaws then they're not really a Christian, no matter if the club lets them in or not.

It means that you try to live your life as he prescribed and that you believe in him. And that has EVERYTHING to do with being a Christian.

Yeah, by definition of being in the club. But that is not how a True Christian is defined.

I don't think so.

Message 50 of 133 (425958) 10-04-2007 4:22 PM

Reply to: Message 43 by New Cat's Eye 10-04-2007 4:10 PM

It's the "Christian qualifier" that we're trying to discover in this thread. You're treating your own assumptions as a given.

Message 51 of 133 (425959) 10-04-2007 4:23 PM

Reply to: Message 47 by jar 10-04-2007 4:18 PM

Touché.

But did he raise somebody from the dead?

Message 52 of 133 (425960) 10-04-2007 4:26 PM

Reply to: Message 50 by ringo 10-04-2007 4:22 PM

Yes, we are. So what are they?

I'd say they are, very simply, believing and following Jesus.

More like I'm treating my opinions as correct :D

Message 53 of 133 (425961) 10-04-2007 4:28 PM

Reply to: Message 49 by New Cat's Eye 10-04-2007 4:21 PM

As long as they consistently lie about the bylaws, they are still members and so Christians.

It still has NOTHING to do with being a "Christian".

Ah, the No True Scotsman fallacy rears its head.

Message 54 of 133 (425962) 10-04-2007 4:30 PM

Reply to: Message 51 by New Cat's Eye 10-04-2007 4:23 PM

Jesus said that the Apostles would do such miracles. And in addition, Jesus never claimed that he did the miracles but rather God working through him.

Message 55 of 133 (425963) 10-04-2007 4:33 PM

Reply to: Message 52 by New Cat's Eye 10-04-2007 4:26 PM

Suppose you're driving down the highway (having missed the bus to New Jersey) and a police officer flags you down and tells you the road is closed ahead. There's a bridge out. You have to take a detour.

You say, "Okay, I believe you," and you continue driving down the road, repeating to yourself, "Yup, I sure do believe that police officer," until you go sailing into the Delaware River.

Following a belief means doing something about it, not just "believing" it.

Message 56 of 133 (425965) 10-04-2007 4:41 PM

Reply to: Message 41 by Phat 10-04-2007 4:02 PM

I would describe a Christian as someone who believes the Old Roman Creed. This is from the second century and would be the earliest compiled statement of faith.(What you needed to believe to be a Christian then, NOT what you need to believe to be a Christian now, according to some people)

The Old Roman Creed
I believe in God the Father Almighty. And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord, who was born of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary; crucified under Pontius Pilate and buried; the third day he rose from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father, from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. And in the Holy Spirit; the holy Church; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the flesh

Note that this creed says NOT a single thing about scripture or it being literally correct or true or it being "the word of God". Not surprising since The Old Roman Creed predates the "bible" by about 150 years, but I would think if they thought old books important they would have mentioned them in a statement of faith.

Early Christians had no "bible" but they were still Christians.

P.S. Does this creed say Jesus Christ= God, or does it say Jesus Christ= the only son of God?

Message 57 of 133 (425967) 10-04-2007 4:42 PM

Reply to: Message 53 by jar 10-04-2007 4:28 PM

Define "Christian".

Wait, let me guess: "Christian" = a person who is in a Christian club.

Well, this thread is about what a True Christian is. Not what a Club Christian is. They are different things.

So what makes a True Christian? Believing the Creed, right? Not just being a part of the club (which doesn't require actually believing the creed).

Message 58 of 133 (425969) 10-04-2007 4:43 PM

Reply to: Message 55 by ringo 10-04-2007 4:33 PM

Yeah, that's why I typed believing AND following Jesus.

Message 59 of 133 (425970) 10-04-2007 4:45 PM

Reply to: Message 51 by New Cat's Eye 10-04-2007 4:23 PM

Paul did.

Message 60 of 133 (425971) 10-04-2007 4:47 PM

Reply to: Message 56 by petrophysics1 10-04-2007 4:41 PM

That works for me.

What's that part about being the Lord mean?