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Author | Topic: What Is A Christian (Remix) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
macaroniandcheese ![]() Suspended Member (Idle past 4247 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
I think that in order to be considered a Christian, you have to be a Christian in your own mind. Its something that you consciously are. possibly. but, to be a christian in one's own mind doesn't necessarily require being a christian in *your* mind. if someone doesn't think jesus was god, but thinks he's really cool and tries to live like him and thinks he's a christian, he's every right, despite what you or your friends may say.
I think that sets the bar too low. With this standard, someone could be a Christian and not even know it. I think you should know that you are a Christian. i disagree. when people ask about "the primitive in africa," christians often say that the "primitives" may be worshiping their god and it happens to be the right one even if they haven't heard about jesus. they do the right things and they like the right idea of god and may thus be "saved" because of their faith. as such, if only christians can be saved, these people must be christians without knowing it.
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ringo Member (Idle past 731 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Christian Scientist writes: I think that in order to be considered a Christian, you have to be a Christian in your own mind. Jesus disagreed with you. He said that many who think they were in on the ground floor by saying, "Lord! Lord!", will not be accepted - and many that don't expect to be accepted will be.
For example, Ghandi was Christ-like. Acording to your standard, he would have been a Christian but in reality he was a Hindu and not a Christian. You said yourself that it's possible to be a Hindu and a Christian. By their fruits ye shall know them. I have no trouble at all recognizing Gandhi as christian. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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jar Member (Idle past 159 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Jesus disagreed with you. He said that many who think they were in on the ground floor by saying, "Lord! Lord!", will not be accepted - and many that don't expect to be accepted will be. The point is, many non-Christians will be saved while many Christians will be damned. But salvation is a different issue that club membership. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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ringo Member (Idle past 731 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jar writes: But salvation is a different issue that club membership. Which is why I tried to make the distinction a while back between Christian and christian. If the only question is, "Who's a member of the club?", then those of you who have membership cards can hold them up and the topic is over. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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jar Member (Idle past 159 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I agree with that distinction.
They are different. A very large number of Christians just don't seem to understand what Jesus message was, and so even though they are Christians, club members, don't seem to follow his teachings, while lots of folk who are not in the club, do follow Jesus teachings. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
but, to be a christian in one's own mind doesn't necessarily require being a christian in *your* mind. The point was the people that don't consider themselves to be Christian, shouldn't be considered Christian by someone else just because they are like Christ. If you don't consider yourself a Christian, then you're not.
if someone doesn't think jesus was god, but thinks he's really cool and tries to live like him and thinks he's a christian, he's every right, despite what you or your friends may say. That's been covered.
quote: if only christians can be saved False premise. But if that was a true premise, then you would be correct.
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ringo Member (Idle past 731 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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jar writes: A very large number of Christians just don't seem to understand what Jesus message was, and so even though they are Christians, club members, don't seem to follow his teachings, while lots of folk who are not in the club, do follow Jesus teachings. God is the International President of the club and Jesus is the Chairman of the membership committee. He is the ultimate arbiter of who is a member and who is not. Some will come to the convention with counterfeit membership cards and they will be barred, even though their chapters told them they were members in good standing. Even more surprizing is when the membership committee goes out and brings in people off the street who didn't even know they were members. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Christian Scientist writes:
Jesus disagreed with you. He said that many who think they were in on the ground floor by saying, "Lord! Lord!", will not be accepted - and many that don't expect to be accepted will be.
I think that in order to be considered a Christian, you have to be a Christian in your own mind. Like jar said, Jesus was talking about who would be saved, not who should be considered a Christian.
By their fruits ye shall know them. I have no trouble at all recognizing Gandhi as christian. The reason I have trouble recognizing Gandhi as Christian is because he wasn't one. Oh wait, is that a little "c" on purpose? If you define christian (little "c") as simply "like-Christ", then yeah, Gandhi was christian. But Christian (big "C"), as in a member of the Christian community, then no, Gandhi wasn't a Christian. My point about the Chrstian (big "C) label was that simply being a member of the community is not enought to be a True Christian. You should actually believe the stuff too.
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macaroniandcheese ![]() Suspended Member (Idle past 4247 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
False premise. i quite agree, but others don't.
But if that was a true premise, then you would be correct.
hurrah. so it would seem that the definition under that premise would be "whoever is saved" which we won't actually know until after the end of the world, since if christians who don't know they are might be included and only god will know who, then one would assume that it would be a terrible idea to presume to state who is and isn't a christian, no?
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ringo Member (Idle past 731 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes: Like jar said, Jesus was talking about who would be saved, not who should be considered a Christian. Like I said, Jesus' consideration is the only one that counts.
If you define christian (little "c") as simply "like-Christ", then yeah, Gandhi was christian. But Christian (big "C"), as in a member of the Christian community, then no, Gandhi wasn't a Christian. On the contrary, Gandhi was more a member of the real Christian community than Hovind or Falwell or Robertson.
My point about the Chrstian (big "C) label was that simply being a member of the community is not enought to be a True Christian. You should actually believe the stuff too. But the question is "Who IS a Christian?", not "Who's labelled as a Christian?" My point is that it's more correct to call a christian "Christian" than to call a non-christian "Christian". “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
then one would assume that it would be a terrible idea to presume to state who is and isn't a christian, no? I think the idea becomes acceptable when someone says: "I am a Christian, but yadda-yadda-yadda." Where yadda-yadda-yadda is something that makes someone not a Christian. For example, I am a Christian but I don't think we should love our enemies. Or, whatever, the specific doesn't matter for my point. The point is that there is some criteria that must be fit to rightfully be considered a Christian by others. Its possible for someone to claim Christianity but have beliefs or behaviors that make them non-Christian, IMHO. For others to call them out on it and say that they are, in fact, not a Christian is not necessarily a terrible thing.
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macaroniandcheese ![]() Suspended Member (Idle past 4247 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
The point is that there is some criteria that must be fit to rightfully be considered a Christian by others. Its possible for someone to claim Christianity but have beliefs or behaviors that make them non-Christian, IMHO. and now we're right back where we started.
For example, I am a Christian but I don't think we should love our enemies. Or, whatever, the specific doesn't matter for my point. i think it does matter. does not loving our enemies, or thinking gays should be allowed to marry make you less of a christian? how about thinking jesus probably was married, or that having sex before marriagedoesn't make me a bad person? how about thinking i should bomb abortion clinics, or that i should kill fags? how about thinking that satan has power of his own, or thinking that such an idea amounts to polytheism? it seems to me that we're not wise enough to make these distinctions, since we tend to make the wrong ones. i think we should leave the saving up to god.
For others to call them out on it and say that they are, in fact, not a Christian is not necessarily a terrible thing.
i think it's the worst thing we can do. we're supposed to love our neighbors, our enemies, and everyone in between. loving people doesn't include making presumptions about their status with god. it's really not anyone's business.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Like I said, Jesus' consideration is the only one that counts. Well sure, but we're talking about who we consider to be Christians, regardless of if it actually counts.
Gandhi was more a member of the real Christian community than Hovind or Falwell or Robertson. I think we're just talking about different things when we type "C(c)hristian".
But the question is "Who IS a Christian?", not "Who's labelled as a Christian?" I think that in the context of the OP, those are the same question. Maybe I've misunderstood the OP, but from this quote:
quote: it seems to be more concerned with whether on not the label is applicable (because of the persons beliefs or actions), not whether or not the person will actually be with Christ. Well, actually, now that I think about it and reread it, it could be talking about the exact opposite of what I think its trying to say. So now I'm confused.
My point is that it's more correct to call a christian "Christian" than to call a non-christian "Christian". Yeah but I still don't think we should be calling Gandhi a Christian. He was a Hindu. Even if he was more of a christian than many Christians, we shouldn't call him a Christian.
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ringo Member (Idle past 731 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes: ... we're talking about who we consider to be Christians, regardless of if it actually counts. No we're not. I'll remind you again of the OP:
quote: The topic is what makes a Christian a Chriatian, not who "we" consider to be a Christian.
... it seems to be more concerned with whether on not the label is applicable (because of the persons beliefs or actions), not whether or not the person will actually be with Christ. It seems just the opposite to me. ![]() By their fruit ye shall know them. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
i think it does matter. does not loving our enemies, or thinking gays should be allowed to marry make you less of a christian? how about thinking jesus probably was married, or that having sex before marriagedoesn't make me a bad person? how about thinking i should bomb abortion clinics, or that i should kill fags? how about thinking that satan has power of his own, or thinking that such an idea amounts to polytheism? You'll find Christians that accept or reject any combination of those. But they could still be considered Christians. Still though, there's some minimum requirements for who we should consider Christians. Certainly, being a follower of Christ is one of them. Maybe the only one?
it seems to me that we're not wise enough to make these distinctions, since we tend to make the wrong ones. i think we should leave the saving up to god. I'm not talking about the saving. I'm just talking about the label.
For others to call them out on it and say that they are, in fact, not a Christian is not necessarily a terrible thing.
i think it's the worst thing we can do. we're supposed to love our neighbors, our enemies, and everyone in between. loving people doesn't include making presumptions about their status with god. it's really not anyone's business. Again, I'm not judging their status with God. I'm trying to find the criteria for who we, as Christians, should consider others as Christians or not. I don't think the criteria can be just being like Christ, because that would include non-Christians like Gandhi who is a Hindu and not a Christian but happens to be like Christ. I don't think the criteria can be just being a member of a Christian community, because a non-Christian (like a double-agent or something) could easily become a member while not be a Christian. You see what I'm getting at? What do you think the criteria should be?
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