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Author Topic:   I'm trying: a stairway to heaven?
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 55 of 303 (255852)
10-31-2005 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Brian
10-29-2005 12:28 PM


Re: So Heaven is not about trying?
why not? god forgives whom he desires.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Brian, posted 10-29-2005 12:28 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Brian, posted 11-01-2005 7:40 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 56 of 303 (255853)
10-31-2005 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Chiroptera
10-31-2005 5:22 PM


i have simply decided that the god of the jews was not omnipotent. it makes much more sense.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Chiroptera, posted 10-31-2005 7:29 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 73 of 303 (255900)
10-31-2005 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Chiroptera
10-31-2005 7:29 PM


i think he's much more personable. the only attributes we know for sure of god is that he knows everything and he lives forever.
i prefer a god i can wrestle with.
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 10-31-2005 07:58 PM

And why you think you take a Ho to a Ho-tel
Ho-tell everybody, even the mayor
Reach up in the sky for the Ho-zone layer
Now C'mon playa wants a Ho always
And Ho's neva close, they open like hallways

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Chiroptera, posted 10-31-2005 7:29 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by iano, posted 10-31-2005 8:11 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 77 of 303 (255906)
10-31-2005 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by iano
10-31-2005 8:11 PM


i quite disagree. based on the experiences of the jewish people, and their claims of god, we know only that he is all-knowing and eternal. yes he is powerful, but we do not know the extent of his power. further, he can be beaten. jacob wrestled with him (physically) and won. thus we know also that he has a body whether he maintains it or not.
from the creation myth, we know that god wanted to create something to keep him company. he was lonely. wouldn't he want an equal and not a slave? so the two mystical things he gives to his creation are knowledge and life. thus, these are the things that would make us like him. these would make us his companions. but he can't give us both or we would be so inexperienced and immature that we'd do something stupid. so we got to pick which one. eventually we will attain the other. we picked knowledge. the rest is construction.
he is much like all the other regional deities. but i think he's better.

And why you think you take a Ho to a Ho-tel
Ho-tell everybody, even the mayor
Reach up in the sky for the Ho-zone layer
Now C'mon playa wants a Ho always
And Ho's neva close, they open like hallways

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by iano, posted 10-31-2005 8:11 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 11-01-2005 2:36 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied
 Message 81 by iano, posted 11-01-2005 6:22 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 86 of 303 (255971)
11-01-2005 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by iano
11-01-2005 6:22 AM


immatterial of whether he really exists or not, these are the only attributes we can know for certain he has. but if he doesn't exist then why does it matter?
that statement was a description of the bible as a folklore not 'god-breathed' but not necessarily entirely false.

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 Message 81 by iano, posted 11-01-2005 6:22 AM iano has replied

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 Message 89 by iano, posted 11-01-2005 10:31 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 92 of 303 (255998)
11-01-2005 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by iano
11-01-2005 10:31 AM


you're reading to much into the word certain.
we can assume easily that the bible would follow the same trends of other mythology.
my main point is that it doesn't say he was omnipotent, nor bvenevolent, nor loving, nor any of this other stuff. from the myths, we know he is represented only to have life and knowledge.
don't try to be emperical... it's not a science and it never could be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by iano, posted 11-01-2005 10:31 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by iano, posted 11-01-2005 11:16 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 95 of 303 (256014)
11-01-2005 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by iano
11-01-2005 11:16 AM


nonsense. still words. still spiritual in nature. by being supernatural in hue it is therefore not scientific ever.

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 Message 94 by iano, posted 11-01-2005 11:16 AM iano has replied

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 Message 97 by iano, posted 11-01-2005 12:14 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 114 of 303 (256077)
11-01-2005 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by iano
11-01-2005 12:14 PM


eh. i can't rely on a document with no outside verification to be accurate.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 117 of 303 (256093)
11-01-2005 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Brian
11-01-2005 7:40 PM


Re: So Heaven is not about trying?
ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
he picks those he likes and makes them his own.
i refuse to capitalize. i think it's foolish. he's not an omnipotent being, he's just a really cool dude.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Brian, posted 11-01-2005 7:40 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Chiroptera, posted 11-01-2005 8:29 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 120 by Brian, posted 11-02-2005 2:53 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 119 of 303 (256102)
11-01-2005 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Chiroptera
11-01-2005 8:29 PM


Re: He or he?
i think so. it's silly really. context clues, people. it's like capitalizing the word god. it's not a name.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 127 of 303 (256155)
11-02-2005 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Brian
11-02-2005 2:53 AM


Re: So Heaven is not about trying?
it is quite clear that judaism is henotheistic not monotheistic. as a result, to catually believe in the same god, christians must then be henotheistic. actually. in order to hold the beliefs they do about satan and the angels etc, they must be henotheistic. just because they don't know that is not my problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Brian, posted 11-02-2005 2:53 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by ramoss, posted 11-02-2005 8:21 AM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 147 by Brian, posted 11-02-2005 6:57 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 129 of 303 (256159)
11-02-2005 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by ramoss
11-02-2005 8:21 AM


Re: So Heaven is not about trying?
you say it is monotheistic. you say satan is not a god. however, he has the characteristics of god (knowledge and life), therefore, he must be a god. he may not be THE god and he may not have worshippable behaviours, but he still qualifies as a god.
the hebrew god is described as the GOD OF GODS. how can that be if there are no other gods? he says 'you shall have no other gods before me'. how can that be if there are no other gods? just saying that there are other gods is no idolotry. he only demands that you worship him alone. it's like admitting there are angels (as they are lesser gods).
the hebrew god is described as the GOD OF ISRAEL. baalzebub is described as the GOD OF EKRON (2kings 1)
there's a specific reference that i'm looking for, but i can't find it. a gentleman from philistine (i think) comes to israel because he believes the god of israel (as opposed to the god of his area) can heal his disease. this is the case so he decides that only the god of israel deserves his praise. so, he takes back like six mule loads of dirt so that he can worship the god of israel in his own land. this is precisely characteristic of regional deism... a form of henotheism. does the bible say he is idolotrous for using the dirt of israel for worshipping the god of israel? no it does not. he is doing the proper thing.
the god of israel calls people from foreign lands to his own so that they may worship him. he called abraham from iraq. he called the jews from egypt. in fact, the only reason the jews worship the god of israel is that he brought them from egypt. that is his demand in the commandments. 'i am the lord your god who brought you out of egypt. [therefore,] you shall have no other gods before me.' that's the way it reads. that's the way it is interpretted. it's not because he formed the earth and the stars and blah blah blah (whether he did or not) but because he brought them out of egypt. he saved them from slavery.
this is precisely the reason for pilgrimage and the best reason for it. christianity simply abandons this idea because hellenistic culture demanded more perfection and biggerness (yes that's the precise term i wish to use ;p).

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 148 of 303 (256360)
11-02-2005 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Brian
11-02-2005 6:57 PM


Re: Cool guy?
you're going to believe the political parts of this collection of stories when we know they are inaccurate?
we have outside sources that say that the israelites were defeated by armies they claimed to have beaten.
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 11-02-2005 08:11 PM

And why you think you take a Ho to a Ho-tel
Ho-tell everybody, even the mayor
Reach up in the sky for the Ho-zone layer
Now C'mon playa wants a Ho always
And Ho's neva close, they open like hallways

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Brian, posted 11-02-2005 6:57 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Brian, posted 11-03-2005 8:51 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 165 of 303 (256662)
11-03-2005 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Brian
11-03-2005 8:51 PM


Re: Cool guy?
Bartleby.com:
tell me what the bible says about jehu. i could look it up, but i think it'd be more fun for you.
i'm saying that the writers of the bible misinterpretted their god. just as crazy southern baptists do today. allegedly, the god of the sbc is the same as that of the presbyterians (whom i was raised under but am a bit left of)... but if you experienced the people of both interpretations, you'd be very sure that there is something fishy going on. it must be that someone is wrong or there are more gods. since they both agree it's the same god, one must be wrong.
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 11-04-2005 12:00 AM

And why you think you take a Ho to a Ho-tel
Ho-tell everybody, even the mayor
Reach up in the sky for the Ho-zone layer
Now C'mon playa wants a Ho always
And Ho's neva close, they open like hallways

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Brian, posted 11-03-2005 8:51 PM Brian has not replied

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