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Author Topic:   Is sin allowed into heaven?
JasonChin 
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 35 (162227)
11-22-2004 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by happy_atheist
11-14-2004 9:44 AM


If we don't have the possibility to sin, what of free will?
I don't think free will exists......it's just an illusion. No matter what you believe, I don't see how you can believe in free will, if you consider it from an entirely logical perspective.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by happy_atheist, posted 11-14-2004 9:44 AM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by happy_atheist, posted 11-22-2004 5:13 AM JasonChin has replied

  
JasonChin 
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 35 (162239)
11-22-2004 5:32 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by happy_atheist
11-22-2004 5:13 AM


Even in science and the laws of nature determinism doesn't exist, because it is physically impossible to know everything about a system. That is a property of the universe. Without knowing everything, you can't determine everything.
Just because WE can't determine it doesn't mean it isnt predetermined........
Coupled with the entirely statistical nature of quantum mechanics there's certainly room in there for free will if indeed it does exist.
There are three possible reasons why this is true about Quantum Physics......either quantum physics is determined by metaphysical forces, forces we have determined yet or there's a perfectly logical explanation for quantum physics, but humans are just too dim to get it. Most scientists think it's the first or the last.
In any case, everything in the universe still remains predetermined, we just can't understand it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by happy_atheist, posted 11-22-2004 5:13 AM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by happy_atheist, posted 11-22-2004 5:42 AM JasonChin has replied

  
JasonChin 
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 35 (162244)
11-22-2004 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by happy_atheist
11-22-2004 5:42 AM


Bells inequality rules out the possibility for hidden variable theories of quantum mechanics. That is why non-local phenomenon such as entanglement are possible. Without this there would be no such thing as teleportation.
In other words, we know for a fact that we know all that we're going to about quantum mechanics......correct, sir?
Unsupported assertion...you can't start with a conclusion and then explain away things that don't fit it with handwaving and claims of incomplete knowledge. If we can't understand something, we can't have knowledge of it.
Of course I can't support the claim that everything is predetermined........in order to do that, I'd have to determine everything, and, as you state above, Bell's inequality makes that impossible.
But it's a simple logical step to know that everything about ourselves is determined by outside forces.......and, therefore, free will is an illusion. All my decisions are predetermined by my environment and genetics, from a materialistic viewpoint.
Free will is a fundamental part of christian doctrine, without it christianity is meaningless.
Untrue. You guys should really study Christianity before making claims like this. Paul himself teaches against free will in Romans.
If you want to start a thread on the existance of free will we can talk about this more there.
That sounds pretty kwel........but you're gonna have to be the one to start it, as I know the admins won't post any threads from me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by happy_atheist, posted 11-22-2004 5:42 AM happy_atheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by happy_atheist, posted 11-22-2004 6:21 AM JasonChin has replied

  
JasonChin 
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 35 (162256)
11-22-2004 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by happy_atheist
11-22-2004 6:21 AM


It's not a simple logical step at all. We have little idea about how the inner workings of the brain work, so we certainly can't say if it's possible to determine the future state of it or not.
If it's a purely physical phenom, then surely it can be explained.......if not, then surely God made it. Either way, everything was predetermined......
No Heisenbergs Uncertainty Principle shows that absolute determination of the state of a system is impossible.
That's because of the collapse of the wave function, not because the system doesn't operate in predetermined fashion.
Also, just because we are subject to physical forces, that does not mean the end result is entirely deterministic for precisely the reasons we've discussed above.
This is an anti-materialist point of view.
As an example, take an electron diffraction experiment. Basically you have a double slit, and you fire an electron at it, then measure where it lands on the board. If you fire a single electron at the slits, in full knowledge of the physical forces being applied to it, where will it end up? Who knows, it's not determinable.
It's perfectly predictable what the WAVE will do though.
Without free will there is no choice. Without choice there is no accountability for our actions, and forgivness becomes stupid.
This is your opinion. Not Christian doctrine.
Without free will there is no reason not to simply create everyone in heaven, only creating those that would meet the requirements.
This could be said, regardless of whether free will exists.
I have a feeling that the thread for discussing free will already exists anyway, so we should probably just find that..
Sounds good to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by happy_atheist, posted 11-22-2004 6:21 AM happy_atheist has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Xenocrates, posted 11-27-2004 1:40 AM JasonChin has not replied

  
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