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Author Topic:   How do we know God is "Good"?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 57 of 305 (156183)
11-05-2004 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by riVeRraT
11-05-2004 10:48 AM


No-one here has ever proven that God is responsible for evil.
He created it, only because he created everything, but he is not responsible for it happening.
How does that make any sense?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by riVeRraT, posted 11-05-2004 10:48 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by riVeRraT, posted 11-05-2004 11:44 AM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 72 of 305 (156325)
11-05-2004 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by riVeRraT
11-05-2004 11:44 AM


What is a car? Good or evil?
Well, a poorly designed car that harms its occupants in ways that were or could have been forseen is not only evil, it means legal culpability for its designers. This has happened a number of times, where the designers of automobiles were held liable for deaths occuring as a result of their design.
It's a very well-established legal principle that if you had forknowledge of the commission of a crime or injury to a person and the power or position to intervene, but did not, then you're culpable. Do you deny that God has both the forknowledge of injury and the capacity to intervene?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by riVeRraT, posted 11-05-2004 11:44 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by riVeRraT, posted 11-05-2004 6:04 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 81 of 305 (156373)
11-05-2004 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by riVeRraT
11-05-2004 6:04 PM


No, but he leaves the decsion entirely up to us.
Woah, wait a minute. That has absolutely nothing to do with it. "Leaving the decision up to us" means dereliction of responsibility.
Dereliction of responsibility doesn't eliminate culpability; if anything, it magnifies it.
I know that you believe that "God leaves the decision up to us." What I'm telling you is, under basic legal principles, that leaves him open to culpability for our actions.
So the designer builds a bad car, is the car bad, or is the manufacture?
The designer is, of course. He's responsible for what the car does, in this instance. He's not responsible for everything that the car does, of course. If you drive over your grandma in it, he's not responsible, because he could not reasonably forsee where you were going to drive the car, or how you were going to drive.
But if you park the car in your garage, and as a result of that situation, the car explodes and kills your entire family, he is responsible, because he could have reasonably been expected to forsee that people park cars in garages.
Well, God's a little different. He can forsee everything. That makes him culpable for everything. The legal principles here are very simple, and inescapable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by riVeRraT, posted 11-05-2004 6:04 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by riVeRraT, posted 11-05-2004 6:23 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 85 of 305 (156381)
11-05-2004 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by riVeRraT
11-05-2004 6:23 PM


Yes but God doesn't do that to us.
What, God doesn't explode in our garages?
That's your response? "God doesn't do it to us?" That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about all the bad things God created us to do to each other - all the things he's responsible for.
So what your saying is, if I believe in God, then I foolish in thinking I have free will?
That's a related but tangential argument, but yes. If you believe in both free will and predestination, then you don't understand what "free will" and "predestination" mean. They're mutually exclusive terms.
If someone gives you a puppy dog, and you don't take care of it, whos fault is it if it dies?
If I place two children in a room with a loaded gun, and one of them shoots the other, who's responsible? The child, or me, who had the forsight to predict the shooting and the opportunity to intervene, but did not?
Aren't we all God's children?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by riVeRraT, posted 11-05-2004 6:23 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by riVeRraT, posted 11-06-2004 9:46 AM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 94 of 305 (156876)
11-06-2004 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by riVeRraT
11-06-2004 9:46 AM


It's like Jar said, there is no good without bad. They must co-exist, in order to exist at all.
Except in heaven, right? There's no bad in heaven, right?
Do we have free will in heaven? Does God have free will himself, without the capacity to do bad?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by riVeRraT, posted 11-06-2004 9:46 AM riVeRraT has not replied

Replies to this message:
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