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Author Topic:   How do we know God is "Good"?
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 76 of 305 (156352)
11-05-2004 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by riVeRraT
11-05-2004 4:41 PM


the rat writes:
So it is strictly mans choice that determines whether something is good or evil, not God's
Um... uh... didn't you say that god created man also?
A) All things are things that god created.
B) All things that god created are things that are good.
C) Therefore, all things are things that are good.
This is simple logic, for crying out loud.

Hate world.
Revenge soon!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by riVeRraT, posted 11-05-2004 4:41 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by riVeRraT, posted 11-05-2004 6:07 PM coffee_addict has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 77 of 305 (156366)
11-05-2004 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
11-03-2004 9:53 AM


Re: GOD is complete.
Even if all life were destroyed, it's likely it would start again. It certainly happened at least one time before and most likely, several times. Since we know that life began even if we do not know how, there is no reason to believe it could not happen again.
This would suggest an adundance of life throughout the universe. It would even suggest that life can happen anywhere, regardless of atmosphere, elements, etc.
Or do you feel this is exclusive to earth?
Plus, I guess then you think God is responsible for bad. Why else would he create a universe where random bad things can happen.
I understand that bad doesn't mean evil, because it is just happening randomly. But it isn't that random if God created it.
Plus that doesn't explain innocent babies dying in Africa. Unless you are saying "God created the world, and he didn't give anyone the keys"
Here, here's the universe, your on your own, good luck and good games.
It seems to me, you made your own way to explain the "bigger picture". a way that allows you to get along with the masses. Which is fine really. Alot of it makes sense. Your like a middle man type person. I am the same, even if my typings in here do not reflect it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 11-03-2004 9:53 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 11-05-2004 6:00 PM riVeRraT has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 78 of 305 (156369)
11-05-2004 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by riVeRraT
11-05-2004 5:44 PM


Re: GOD is complete.
This would suggest an adundance of life throughout the universe. It would even suggest that life can happen anywhere, regardless of atmosphere, elements, etc.
Personally, I believe we will find life to be pretty common. So far, everything we've been able to observe seems to follow the same set of rules, to behave in the same manner. I see no reason that life should behave diferently.
Or do you feel this is exclusive to earth?
Nope. So far I have seen nothing very special about the Earth.
Plus, I guess then you think God is responsible for bad. Why else would he create a universe where random bad things can happen.
I understand that bad doesn't mean evil, because it is just happening randomly. But it isn't that random if God created it.
I've said before that IMHO you cannot have one without the other. You cannot have pleasure without pain, gain without loss, good without bad.
Plus that doesn't explain innocent babies dying in Africa. Unless you are saying "God created the world, and he didn't give anyone the keys"
Here, here's the universe, your on your own, good luck and good games.
We'l,let's look at that. I don't want to get into another long disertation so let me ask you a question.
Why are innocent babies dying in Africa?
It seems to me, you made your own way to explain the "bigger picture". a way that allows you to get along with the masses.
It may seem that way to you but that is not how I see it. People ask about my beliefs FWTW, and so I post them.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by riVeRraT, posted 11-05-2004 5:44 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by riVeRraT, posted 11-05-2004 6:17 PM jar has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 79 of 305 (156371)
11-05-2004 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by crashfrog
11-05-2004 4:08 PM


Well thats not a good comparison, heres the reason why.
Do you deny that God has both the forknowledge of injury and the capacity to intervene?
No, but he leaves the decsion entirely up to us. The person who drove the car, had no knowledge before hand that it was designed bad, so he had no choice.
So the designer builds a bad car, is the car bad, or is the manufacture? It's different than God's plan for us, because that car will do harm as soon as you drive it. You on the other hand can make a choice.
I believe God has cleary put in our hearts what is good and bad, so we have no exuse for not being good.
You might say some people are raised not knowing good from bad, but this a fault of the parents or their up-bringing. That is partly why sin is inherent. Its a vicious cycle that is hard to break. But when you come to know God, you can break that cycle. Others like yourself have decided that many things are no good, so you go away from them, and then do for the good. This is deception, to keep you from your creator. You would only gain from knowing him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by crashfrog, posted 11-05-2004 4:08 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by crashfrog, posted 11-05-2004 6:11 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 80 of 305 (156372)
11-05-2004 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by coffee_addict
11-05-2004 5:06 PM


Its not that simple.
Last time I saw someone wearing a mask like that, he was in the back of a short bus, hitting the kid next to him.
Question, is free will a thing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by coffee_addict, posted 11-05-2004 5:06 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by coffee_addict, posted 11-05-2004 6:40 PM riVeRraT has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 81 of 305 (156373)
11-05-2004 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by riVeRraT
11-05-2004 6:04 PM


No, but he leaves the decsion entirely up to us.
Woah, wait a minute. That has absolutely nothing to do with it. "Leaving the decision up to us" means dereliction of responsibility.
Dereliction of responsibility doesn't eliminate culpability; if anything, it magnifies it.
I know that you believe that "God leaves the decision up to us." What I'm telling you is, under basic legal principles, that leaves him open to culpability for our actions.
So the designer builds a bad car, is the car bad, or is the manufacture?
The designer is, of course. He's responsible for what the car does, in this instance. He's not responsible for everything that the car does, of course. If you drive over your grandma in it, he's not responsible, because he could not reasonably forsee where you were going to drive the car, or how you were going to drive.
But if you park the car in your garage, and as a result of that situation, the car explodes and kills your entire family, he is responsible, because he could have reasonably been expected to forsee that people park cars in garages.
Well, God's a little different. He can forsee everything. That makes him culpable for everything. The legal principles here are very simple, and inescapable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by riVeRraT, posted 11-05-2004 6:04 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by riVeRraT, posted 11-05-2004 6:23 PM crashfrog has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 82 of 305 (156375)
11-05-2004 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by jar
11-05-2004 6:00 PM


Re: GOD is complete.
Why are innocent babies dying in Africa?
I cannot answer a question like that, because I will never know all the variables that went into Africa becoming a Nation that has all these problems in such abundance.
I once said that Africa has all it needs to be happy. That means they have the resources to feed themselves. Diamonds for example. The way the diamond business is run there is nothing short of a mafia type operations that only feeds the greedy and sinful. Another example, all Musslems in Africa probably do know about Christ, or at some point in there long history have choosen not to follow his ways of loving one another. This can lead to the situation that they have there now. If they all loved eached other, the way Christ wants us to, then the suffering can stop.
Again I tell you , I can't possibly know why it is the way it is, I can guess, but thats not helping them is it? I can explain to you, how I got to be where I'm at, but even that, I guess I could only go back so far.
But its like you said, there is no good without bad. Maybe we need to know the difference as sort of a training for what lies beyond this life? We are constantly being tested, and it is fustrating for sure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 11-05-2004 6:00 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 11-05-2004 6:29 PM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 83 of 305 (156376)
11-05-2004 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by crashfrog
11-05-2004 6:11 PM


But if you park the car in your garage, and as a result of that situation, the car explodes and kills your entire family, he is responsible, because he could have reasonably been expected to forsee that people park cars in garages.
Yes but God doesn't do that to us.
I know that you believe that "God leaves the decision up to us." What I'm telling you is, under basic legal principles, that leaves him open to culpability for our actions.
So what your saying is, if I believe in God, then I foolish in thinking I have free will?
I know a guy like this. He believes in God, and knows the bible inside and out. It saved him from the way he was. But he is now trapped in believing that he has no free will, because he knows God knows everything even before it happens. He doesn't understand God's timeline. Nor do I, but I know that if God gave us free will, then we have the gift of free will. Then it is our responsibility.
If someone gives you a puppy dog, and you don't take care of it, whos fault is it if it dies? God's?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by crashfrog, posted 11-05-2004 6:11 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by crashfrog, posted 11-05-2004 6:39 PM riVeRraT has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 84 of 305 (156379)
11-05-2004 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by riVeRraT
11-05-2004 6:17 PM


Re: GOD is complete.
Another example, all Musslems in Africa probably do know about Christ, or at some point in there long history have choosen not to follow his ways of loving one another.
What the hell does that have to do with anything?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by riVeRraT, posted 11-05-2004 6:17 PM riVeRraT has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 85 of 305 (156381)
11-05-2004 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by riVeRraT
11-05-2004 6:23 PM


Yes but God doesn't do that to us.
What, God doesn't explode in our garages?
That's your response? "God doesn't do it to us?" That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about all the bad things God created us to do to each other - all the things he's responsible for.
So what your saying is, if I believe in God, then I foolish in thinking I have free will?
That's a related but tangential argument, but yes. If you believe in both free will and predestination, then you don't understand what "free will" and "predestination" mean. They're mutually exclusive terms.
If someone gives you a puppy dog, and you don't take care of it, whos fault is it if it dies?
If I place two children in a room with a loaded gun, and one of them shoots the other, who's responsible? The child, or me, who had the forsight to predict the shooting and the opportunity to intervene, but did not?
Aren't we all God's children?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by riVeRraT, posted 11-05-2004 6:23 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by riVeRraT, posted 11-06-2004 9:46 AM crashfrog has replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 86 of 305 (156382)
11-05-2004 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by riVeRraT
11-05-2004 6:07 PM


the rat writes:
Question, is free will a thing?
Question, is an earthquake a thing or is it once again manmade?

Hate world.
Revenge soon!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by riVeRraT, posted 11-05-2004 6:07 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by riVeRraT, posted 11-06-2004 10:28 AM coffee_addict has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 87 of 305 (156610)
11-06-2004 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by crashfrog
11-05-2004 6:39 PM


We're talking about all the bad things God created us to do to each other
That is an incorrect statement. I believe God intended us to be nice to each other. Isn't that how you feel inside, that we should be nice to each other?
If I place two children in a room with a loaded gun, and one of them shoots the other, who's responsible? The child, or me, who had the forsight to predict the shooting and the opportunity to intervene, but did not?
Aren't we all God's children?
Yes, I understand your point, but God old us not to shoot each other, even though he gaves us the chance to.
It's like Jar said, there is no good without bad. They must co-exist, in order to exist at all. Otherwise we are just paintings on a wall.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by crashfrog, posted 11-05-2004 6:39 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by lfen, posted 11-06-2004 10:04 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 91 by sidelined, posted 11-06-2004 10:41 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 94 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2004 10:59 PM riVeRraT has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 88 of 305 (156611)
11-06-2004 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by riVeRraT
11-06-2004 9:46 AM


It's like Jar said, there is no good without bad. They must co-exist, in order to exist at all. Otherwise we are just paintings on a wall.
How about projected images on a screen? The story unfolds but the screen is not burnt when the movie is showing a fire, nor does it get wet if it shows a flood.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by riVeRraT, posted 11-06-2004 9:46 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by riVeRraT, posted 11-06-2004 10:37 AM lfen has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 89 of 305 (156612)
11-06-2004 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by coffee_addict
11-05-2004 6:40 PM


An earthquake is a thing.
I know where you are going with this. Disasters of any sort are the most difficult to undestand. But remember, many things come from a disaster. Hero's are made, thieves, peoples generosity can shine, and a grave reminder of just how fragile life is.
Yes disasters can happen for several reason, and we will never be able to see the bigger picture.
But I do not understand why you would mention earthquakes after I mention free will. They have not to much to do with each other in this conversation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by coffee_addict, posted 11-05-2004 6:40 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by coffee_addict, posted 11-06-2004 6:04 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 90 of 305 (156613)
11-06-2004 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by lfen
11-06-2004 10:04 AM


Ifen, you are a very deep person. Your thoughts are beautiful, and your knowledge awesome. Your collection of knowledge can be both advantageous to you, or detrimental to you.
Do you believe in God?
Our minds are also a screen. An awesome screen that God gave us to project images on when we read stories in a book. Unlike the screen, we get to retain the images, and apply the story to our lives. Any story that is not from God, or cannot in some fashion be applied to the glory of God, can be detrimental to us. All we have to do is ask.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by lfen, posted 11-06-2004 10:04 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by lfen, posted 11-07-2004 1:33 PM riVeRraT has replied

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