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Author
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Topic: YEC vs. EVO presuppositions / methodology
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 57 of 300 (262221)
11-21-2005 11:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 56 by Faith
11-21-2005 10:44 PM
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So convince us
So if you think you could entertain the idea that God trumps science (?) Convince us. Provide the evidence. edited to fix sub-title This message has been edited by jar, 11-21-2005 10:20 PM
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 56 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 10:44 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 59 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 11:30 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 64 of 300 (262229)
11-21-2005 11:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 59 by Faith
11-21-2005 11:30 PM
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Re: So convince us
So Faith said:
So if you think you could entertain the idea that God trumps science (?) which appears to be your central premise. In addition you have repeated misrepresented others by saying they are fixed in their premises. So jar responded:
jar writes: Convince us. Provide the evidence. Are you now saying that you will not try to convince us, will not try to provide evidence to support your premise? Are you admitting that your basic premise is so weak that it cannot be supported?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 59 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 11:30 PM | | Faith has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 107 of 300 (262390)
11-22-2005 11:43 AM
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Reply to: Message 66 by randman
11-22-2005 12:08 AM
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Important contribution from randman
Jar, what's the purpose of the thread? To defend the claim the Bible is true, or discuss the underlying beliefs that make up the evo/creo debate? I really don't care about wether or not the Bible is true, that's a philosophical question and totally unrelated to this thread. Faith made the statement that we should accept her position without question or challenge. I am asking her to convince us of why we should not challenge her position. So far the only reason she has given is that if her position is challenged then she won't play.
There is nothing wrong with considering a historical account and seeing if the evidence fits. I see nothing wrong with that, but that is NOT what Faith has said. That is a misrepresentation of her position. IMHO this is important... Faith has said that the evidence must fit. She has said that if the evidence does not fit, then either the method or evidence itself must be wrong.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 66 by randman, posted 11-22-2005 12:08 AM | | randman has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 115 of 300 (262402)
11-22-2005 12:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 109 by Faith
11-22-2005 11:47 AM
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Faith once again misrepresents what has been said.
Once again you have misrepresented what I have said. I have not argued for one position over the other. I have simply asked you to show the evidence for why your position should be considered. Surely there is some reason beyond Faith says so? Is my summation of your position correct? If so, why should such a position be considered?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 109 by Faith, posted 11-22-2005 11:47 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: A resolution, indeed
And there is the solution. In the science fora, the scientific premise is assumed, and in the belief fora, the creationist premise is assumed. The debate can continue successfully. But in the Faith fora is it reasonable to debate who or what this assumed God is? For example, while I would describe myself as a Christian Creationist I doubt that the GOD I believe in has any relation or similarity to the God that Faith describes.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 217 of 300 (263018)
11-25-2005 1:04 AM
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Reply to: Message 216 by Buzsaw
11-24-2005 11:52 PM
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Re: A resolution, indeed
As long as evolutionists accept the ID creationism premise at the same time, there is no problem. Why? Just like the scientific method is subject to being challenged, any other premise is subject to challenge. To say some premise should be accepted without challenge is simply admiting that it is incapable of being supported. That's why the IDists and Biblical Creationists demand their premise be accepted. They know that both are so weak that they will not stand up to even passing scrutiny.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 216 by Buzsaw, posted 11-24-2005 11:52 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 227 by Buzsaw, posted 11-25-2005 9:38 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 231 of 300 (263072)
11-25-2005 11:15 AM
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Reply to: Message 227 by Buzsaw
11-25-2005 9:38 AM
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Re: A resolution, indeed
2. Who is advocating that any premise should be accepted without challenge? Faith is. That is her whole point. She says that the Biblical Creationist position should be accepted without challenge.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 227 by Buzsaw, posted 11-25-2005 9:38 AM | | Buzsaw has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 257 of 300 (263279)
11-26-2005 11:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 255 by Buzsaw
11-26-2005 11:38 AM
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Re: A resolution, indeed
Correct. Faith is saying that her premise should not be challenged. That position is IMHO simply a demonstration that she realizes that the premise is indefensible.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 255 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2005 11:38 AM | | Buzsaw has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 260 of 300 (263285)
11-26-2005 12:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
11-26-2005 11:53 AM
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Re: A resolution, indeed
The YEC premise that God is above all is no more unchallengeable than the evo premise that science is above all. Yet another misrepresentation of what anyone has said. You are perfectly free to challenge the Scientific position, or even the scientific method. Just bring on the evidence to support your assertions. So far, all we've seen is your claims that science cannot be challenged and that we must accept your premise without challenge. Once again, if there is support for your premise, here's your opportunity to do so.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 259 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 11:53 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 262 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 12:17 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 265 of 300 (263299)
11-26-2005 12:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 262 by Faith
11-26-2005 12:17 PM
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Yet another opportunity for Faith to support her premise.
From the YEC perspective it is the Bible that challenges science and everything else including wrong theologies based on the Bible. Fine Faith. Support that premise. Show us why such a premise should be considered. Show us why the other theologies are wrong. Convince us. Is your premise so weak and unsupportable that you cannot defend it?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 262 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 12:17 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 266 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 12:28 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 267 of 300 (263302)
11-26-2005 12:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 263 by Buzsaw
11-26-2005 12:17 PM
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Re: A resolution, indeed
I guess we should let Faith clarify her point if she wishes, but I read 181's message to be that all should be allowed to debate on one's own premise and that alone. That's fine Buz, but don't you think a premise should be able to be defended or supported? Folk are free to come up with any premise they want, but should that premise stand solely by assertion? Should it be open to challenge and question?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 263 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2005 12:17 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 268 of 300 (263303)
11-26-2005 12:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 266 by Faith
11-26-2005 12:28 PM
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Re: Yet another opportunity for Faith to support her premise.
Neither. You need to support your assertion that your premise may not be challenged.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 266 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 12:28 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 270 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 12:35 PM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 271 of 300 (263309)
11-26-2005 12:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 269 by Faith
11-26-2005 12:33 PM
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Re: A resolution, indeed
The question is, and has been throughout this thread, your assertion that your interpretation of the Bible cannot be challenged. Is that correct or not?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 269 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 12:33 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 272 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 12:40 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 273 of 300 (263315)
11-26-2005 12:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 272 by Faith
11-26-2005 12:40 PM
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Faith once again misrepresents what others say.
It is a simple statement of fact that a YEC holds that the word of God is nonnegotiable judge of all things. Your endless attempts to say they are wrong are OFF TOPIC. Gad, LEARN TO READ. Please show where I said they are wrong. I have simply asked if it is reasonable to challenge their premise. jar asked:
The question is, and has been throughout this thread, your assertion that your interpretation of the Bible cannot be challenged. Is that correct or not? Once again, is that correct or not?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 272 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 12:40 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 275 of 300 (263322)
11-26-2005 1:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 274 by Buzsaw
11-26-2005 12:59 PM
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Re: A resolution, indeed
Buz, here is what I asked.
That's fine Buz, but don't you think a premise should be able to be defended or supported? Folk are free to come up with any premise they want, but should that premise stand solely by assertion? Should it be open to challenge and question? It's a yes or no question. Should a premise be open to challenge or question?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 274 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2005 12:59 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 277 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2005 1:13 PM | | jar has replied |
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