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Author Topic:   YEC vs. EVO presuppositions / methodology
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 256 of 300 (263273)
11-26-2005 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Faith
11-25-2005 9:14 PM


Re: Telling God what are his words
As I see it, I have provided evidence. You have disagreed and simply dismissed my evidence without actually providing any contrary evidence.
I will allow the record to stand as it is. Nothing will convince you that you are wrong. However, people with inquiring minds will read these pages. They will read what I have posted, and they will read your dismissal. I hope they will also follow some of the links, and consult other evidence, that they may judge the issue for themselves.
As further evidence, I suggest the wikipedia entry on Sola Scriptura as a starting point. Here are a couple of selections from that entry:
Wikipedia writes:
The idea of the singular authority of Scripture is the motivation behind much of the Protestant effort to translate the Bible into vernacular tongues and distribute it widely. They believed each man should be able to read the Bible for himself and compare the teachings of the Church and the Reformers against it.
and
Wikipedia writes:
Sola scriptura reverses the order of the Church's authority, as it is understood in the Catholic tradition: Instead of the Catholic Church's teaching authority being the interpreter of Scripture, sola scriptura makes Scripture the interpreter of tradition. For this reason, it is called the formal cause of the Reformation.
Sola scriptura did not originally signify a radical rejection of all authority of the Church to interpret the Scriptures, but rather represented a claim that the teaching authority of the Church is regulated by the Bible, constrained by Scripture in both a limiting and a directing sense. As John Wesley stated in the 18th century, "The Church is to be judged by the Scriptures, not the Scriptures by the Church." The Reformers argued that the Scriptures are guaranteed to remain true to their divine source, and thus, only insofar as the Church retains scriptural faith is it assured of all the promises of God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Faith, posted 11-25-2005 9:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 11:48 AM nwr has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 257 of 300 (263279)
11-26-2005 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Buzsaw
11-26-2005 11:38 AM


Re: A resolution, indeed
Correct. Faith is saying that her premise should not be challenged. That position is IMHO simply a demonstration that she realizes that the premise is indefensible.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2005 11:38 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 11:53 AM jar has replied
 Message 263 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2005 12:17 PM jar has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 258 of 300 (263280)
11-26-2005 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by nwr
11-26-2005 11:38 AM


Re: Telling God what are his words
I'm not worried about the inquiring minds. You have a false idea of the meaning of the priesthood of all believers and of Christian liberty and it is up to you to show that your idiosyncratic reading is shared by the Southern Baptists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by nwr, posted 11-26-2005 11:38 AM nwr has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 259 of 300 (263282)
11-26-2005 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by jar
11-26-2005 11:46 AM


Re: A resolution, indeed
The YEC premise that God is above all is no more unchallengeable than the evo premise that science is above all.
Yes, the premise is absolutely unchallengeable, and should not be challenged, of course, as certainly the word of God Himself is not to be disputed, but once again you miss the point, the context. It's an EXPLANATION of the situation at EvC. The point is that this is the reason the debate at EvC is impossible, not that EvC or anyone must change to accommodate God -- heaven forbid -- but that whichever premise dominates requires the other to yield. That's just the way it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 11:46 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 12:00 PM Faith has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 260 of 300 (263285)
11-26-2005 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
11-26-2005 11:53 AM


Re: A resolution, indeed
The YEC premise that God is above all is no more unchallengeable than the evo premise that science is above all.
Yet another misrepresentation of what anyone has said. You are perfectly free to challenge the Scientific position, or even the scientific method. Just bring on the evidence to support your assertions. So far, all we've seen is your claims that science cannot be challenged and that we must accept your premise without challenge.
Once again, if there is support for your premise, here's your opportunity to do so.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 11:53 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 12:17 PM jar has replied

AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 261 of 300 (263290)
11-26-2005 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by RAZD
11-26-2005 12:23 AM


Re: Perceptions of Reality
RAZD, I am always amazed by your artful and colorful posts...occasionally a bit over-complex, but commendable just the same!
In your model, here:
I see where some could see the overlaps a bit differently. Perhaps like this:
Outer layer: Science...proof...empiricism.
Next layer: Philosophy....human wisdom dissected and commented upon
Next layer: Faith...an internal concept
Next layer YEC...a subset of some peoples faith.
Personally, I see God as the outermost issue...One who frames the very definitions of words, concepts, and Creator of wisdom.
Perspectives are always viewed from differing angles!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by RAZD, posted 11-26-2005 12:23 AM RAZD has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 12:18 PM AdminPhat has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 262 of 300 (263294)
11-26-2005 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by jar
11-26-2005 12:00 PM


The immovable premises butt heads again
You define the challenge to science on the basis of the science premise, demanding evidence. This you will allow. Of course. This is what I am talking about.
What you will not allow is that the Bible, the revelation of God Himself, challenge science, but this is what demonstrates the symmetry of the opposing premises. Science can challenge science and can challenge the Bible too from the EvC perspective. From the YEC perspective it is the Bible that challenges science and everything else including wrong theologies based on the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 12:00 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 12:25 PM Faith has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 263 of 300 (263295)
11-26-2005 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by jar
11-26-2005 11:46 AM


Re: A resolution, indeed
jar writes:
Correct. Faith is saying that her premise should not be challenged. That position is IMHO simply a demonstration that she realizes that the premise is indefensible.
I guess we should let Faith clarify her point if she wishes, but I read 181's message to be that all should be allowed to debate on one's own premise and that alone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 11:46 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 12:29 PM Buzsaw has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 264 of 300 (263296)
11-26-2005 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by AdminPhat
11-26-2005 12:09 PM


Re: Perceptions of Reality
Excuse me, ADMIN Phat, but that discussion is off topic here. Please move it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by AdminPhat, posted 11-26-2005 12:09 PM AdminPhat has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 265 of 300 (263299)
11-26-2005 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Faith
11-26-2005 12:17 PM


Yet another opportunity for Faith to support her premise.
From the YEC perspective it is the Bible that challenges science and everything else including wrong theologies based on the Bible.
Fine Faith. Support that premise. Show us why such a premise should be considered. Show us why the other theologies are wrong. Convince us. Is your premise so weak and unsupportable that you cannot defend it?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 12:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 12:28 PM jar has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 266 of 300 (263301)
11-26-2005 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by jar
11-26-2005 12:25 PM


Re: Yet another opportunity for Faith to support her premise.
You need me to defend the obvious fact that YECs hold the Bible as the judging authority over science? Or that the standard of correct Biblical interpretation is that the Bible is to be compared to the Bible? REALLY?
This message has been edited by Faith, 11-26-2005 12:29 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 12:25 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 12:31 PM Faith has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 267 of 300 (263302)
11-26-2005 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Buzsaw
11-26-2005 12:17 PM


Re: A resolution, indeed
I guess we should let Faith clarify her point if she wishes, but I read 181's message to be that all should be allowed to debate on one's own premise and that alone.
That's fine Buz, but don't you think a premise should be able to be defended or supported? Folk are free to come up with any premise they want, but should that premise stand solely by assertion? Should it be open to challenge and question?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2005 12:17 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 12:33 PM jar has replied
 Message 274 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2005 12:59 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 268 of 300 (263303)
11-26-2005 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Faith
11-26-2005 12:28 PM


Re: Yet another opportunity for Faith to support her premise.
Neither.
You need to support your assertion that your premise may not be challenged.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 12:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 12:35 PM jar has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 269 of 300 (263304)
11-26-2005 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by jar
11-26-2005 12:29 PM


Re: A resolution, indeed
What ARE you talking about, jar? The Bible is defended at EvC all the time as the word of God, the final authority for a YEC. This thread is for a different purpose which you are simply interfering with. The purpose is to demonstrate the EXISTENCE and CONSISTENT OPERATION of these premises on the two sides and the CONSEQUENCES of their neverending conflict. You are, in other words, seriously off topic.
This message has been edited by Faith, 11-26-2005 12:34 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 12:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 12:36 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 270 of 300 (263307)
11-26-2005 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by jar
11-26-2005 12:31 PM


Re: Yet another opportunity for Faith to support her premise.
You need to support your assertion that your premise may not be challenged.
Not on this thread I don't. It is off topic here. Start another one for that purpose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 12:31 PM jar has not replied

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