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Author Topic:   Alan Alda's polio
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3618 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 12 of 71 (423657)
09-23-2007 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Fosdick
09-22-2007 9:14 PM


I am not medically qualified to speak to the subject of heat and its effectiveness in polio treatment. What I do know from your OP is that (1) many professionals who were qualified to evaluate the matter regarded Kinney's treatments as dangerous and that (2) I am in very bad hands with the author of this OP. You are strongly biased in Kinney's favour, eager to spin the story with prejudiced terms and unsupported accusations, and unwilling to consider all the possibilities.
Hoot:
Now, the medical establishment in Sister Kinney's own country hated and vilified her.
You never establish grounds for your accusations of hate. You establish only that her activities were criticized by medical professionals. You choose to present this as personal hate rather than consider all the possibilities.
You quoted Wikipedia: In 1938 the Health Department of New South Wales subjected her work to a medical Royal Commission whose findings condemned her unorthodox procedures as 'dangerous', 'damaging', 'costly', and 'cruel'.
The article mentions no personal attacks. It describes 'findings'--that would refer to research, yes?--about Kinney's 'unorthodox procedures.'
Evaluation of medical procedures by medical professionals is not hate. It's fair game.
Please address the findings.
The medical establishment in the United States also hated her,
No supporting evidence. Until you have it this is unwarranted slander, Take 2.
I note that you speak of Kinney as a distinct person but routinely represent health professionals in her day as a faceless 'medical establishment.'
As it happens, those people were real, too. And in the 1930s they were busy. Polio was a scourge and many of the patients they treated were penniless. Few could afford to travel much and most were did well to keep already existing clinics financially afloat, even with substantial government support. Research institutions were knocking themselves out to find new treatments.
sniping at her credentials
You mean they called attention to something amiss? Was something amiss?
and discouraging her approach to treating polio.
Most medical professionals do discourage their patients from seeking ineffective treatments research shows to be dangerous, damaging, costly and cruel. They're funny that way.
And you think those findings were misleading because... why?
Instead the US medical establishment
(Cue ominous minor chord in the trombones)
joined up with the US pharmaceutical establishment
(Enter booming timpani and basses)
to lead the fight against polio and find a drug to cure it or develop a vaccine.
Oh MY GOD--They DIDN'T!!!!
The bastards.
Of course this was an epic milestone in sainthood of American medicine.
Which obviously doesn't deserve its halo. The nerve--developing a cure for polio that puts saints like Sister Kinney out of business!
And yet, as a biologist, I have to ask a simple question: Why isn’t it entirely possible that the polio virus could have been attacked timely with heat?
And yet, as a thinking person I have to ask a simple question: do you really think nobody asked this until you did?
You just quoted an article that mentioned findings from a Royal Commission study. And there were other studies and hearings. Somebody was asking.
As well they should, quite aside from the urgent humanitarian concerns. Deliberate suppression of a potential cure for polio would be grounds for a class-action lawsuit of historical proportions.
Obviously, the virus could not withstand Sister Kinney's timely heat treatment, and this was tested over and over in different countries.
Your own account makes it plain that the merits of Kinney's treatments were not universally obvious.
(Yeah, but who's going to make any money on heat?)
Ms Kinney, from the looks of it.
She didn't travel around the world and set up all those clinics during a global Depression using Art Linkletter money. You tell us yourself that the New South Wales findings condemned the 'cost' of her treatments.
How much did Ms Kinney charge her patients for a house call?
Why wasn’t Sister Elizabeth Kinney exalted instead of scorned?
Why wasn’t her treatment encouraged at that critical time of our history?
Looks like she got a fair shake. If the response was not everything you wish it was, perhaps it's because some research findings suggested her unorthodox treatments to be damaging, costly, dangerous, and cruel to polio sufferers.
Just a possibility.
Now here's a question back: why didn't Kinney just issue a press release telling everyone in the world how to cure polio at home with heat applications and no medical training?
(btw: I also I grew up in that frightening shadow of polio.)
This mawkish attempt at drama is neither here nor there on the subject of Kinney. At best it just reminds everyone that people were scared and many would likely try anything.
And more to the heart of the matter: Has the medical/pharmaceutical complex (not to be confused with the military/industrial complex)
Of course we're supposed to confuse it with the military-industrial complex. That's why you introduced the term. You are drawing a cartoon.
You still have not addressed the research findings you brought up yourself.
truly served the cause of relieving human suffering?
Most people would say a cure for polio counts for something in 'truly serving the cause of relieving human suffering.'
But what about Kinney? Why didn't she issue that press release I just mentioned? Didn't she want to relieve more suffering?
Or has it served the treasuries of capitalism, thus becoming a commodity rather of a service?
Your readers are now invited to vent their spleens about the state of American health care in 2007 while Ms Kinney slips out the back door of the 1930s with her black bag.
Not so fast.
You brought up the subject of Kinney and Alda and polio. Let's stay with that subject you raised.
You have characterized Ms Kinney a martyr and flatly stated that medical professionals in two countries acted out of personal 'hate'. Yet you have failed to support these statements. And you have not considered every possibility.
It's possible--just possible--that some medical professionals of Kinney's day conducted research on Kinney's treatments and were genuinely appalled.
Please address this possibility.
_____
Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : brev.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Fosdick, posted 09-22-2007 9:14 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Fosdick, posted 09-23-2007 4:00 PM Archer Opteryx has replied
 Message 14 by jar, posted 09-23-2007 4:04 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3618 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 35 of 71 (424139)
09-25-2007 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Fosdick
09-23-2007 4:00 PM


credibility
Hoot, Message 13:
Oh, come on! I never said "...personal 'hate'". So you are misquoting me and your credibility goes down with that.
Hoot, Message 1:
the medical establishment in Sister Kinney's own country hated and vilified her.
Hated her, you said.
I was writing to a street audience in street vernacular, not to an audience of linguistic psychologists.
I leave it to you to explain how linguistic psychologists make the distinction between hating a person and personal hate. I confess this esoteric distinction escapes my simple understanding of the street vernacular.
_____
Edited by Archer Opterix, : html
Edited by Archer Opterix, : brev.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Fosdick, posted 09-23-2007 4:00 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 11:23 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3618 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 36 of 71 (424141)
09-25-2007 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Fosdick
09-23-2007 4:00 PM


possibilities
Hoot:
Sure it's possible.
I didn't ask you if it was possible that some of Kinney's contemporaries were genuinely alarmed. I know it is.
It is a possibility that exists as a matter of reason. It remains on the table until it can be rationally ruled out.
That's why I asked you to address this possibility. Your OP never mentions it.
On what rational basis did you rule it out of the discussion? How did you conclude the findings of that Australian medical inquiry were invalid?
I look forward to reading your objective analysis of the research.
____
Edited by Archer Opterix, : brev.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Fosdick, posted 09-23-2007 4:00 PM Fosdick has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3618 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 37 of 71 (424146)
09-25-2007 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Fosdick
09-24-2007 8:56 PM


Re: Homo pharmaceuticus americus
Hoot:
Yoga can relieve many symptoms that otherwise require drugs. But who's going to make any money on breathing air in and out?
Yoga instructors.
I don't yet see a thriving yoga industry in America to rival that of drugs.
This will begin to improve today, though, when you start paying your yoga instructor the same money you would pay an MD.
(Maybe this Buddha stuff is threatening to a "Christian society," or maybe it is threatening to the drug industry.)
Yoga would be Hindu stuff.
___

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Fosdick, posted 09-24-2007 8:56 PM Fosdick has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3618 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 59 of 71 (424735)
09-28-2007 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Fosdick
09-26-2007 11:23 AM


Re: credibility
Hoot:
How can you assign "personal hate" to an "establishment"?
That's what I'm asking you, Einstein.
You say an 'establishment' hated a person. Twice.
Now, the medical establishment in Sister Kinney's own country hated and vilified her.
The medical establishment in the United States also hated her
Please offer support for such statements or retract them.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 11:23 AM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2007 11:02 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3618 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 65 of 71 (424754)
09-28-2007 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Fosdick
09-26-2007 7:51 PM


Breaking news: Kinney employee says Kinney A-OK
Hoot:
Would you accept an excerpt of a biography of Sister Kinney from the Spine Hall of Fame?
Your 'Spine Hall of Fame' is provided by Michael V Burton, host of The Burton Report® (http://www.burtonreport.com). According to his own bio, entitled The Burton Experience, the editor is affiliated with the Sister Kenny Institute in Minneapolis where he 'founded the Department of Neuroaugmentive Surgery.'
The three Informatives® he provides at the site do not constitute peer-reviewed research and, in the pages I've seen, don't cite any.
Even if we accept promotional material from Kinney Institute employees as authoritative, your accusation remains unsupported. Burton never asserts that personal animosity lay behind the Australian medical community's rejection of Kinney's treatments.
What else do you have?
_____
Edited by Archer Opterix, : brev.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 7:51 PM Fosdick has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3618 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 66 of 71 (424756)
09-28-2007 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Fosdick
09-28-2007 11:02 AM


Re: credibility
Hoot:
OK, you win. I'll withdraw the word "hate" and replace it "despise." That should clear up your problem.
The problem is yours, I'm afraid, and it remains.
You still assert personal animosity as the only possible reason for the board's conclusions. To play juvenile word games over which label to use for that personal animosity is just to sustain the blind spot.
You still have not addressed the very real possibility I mentioned: that medical professionals in Kinney's day, after conducting valid research into her practices, were genuinely alarmed at what they discovered.
This remains a real possibility for any critical thinker. It may rationally be eliminated only when a rational reason is produced for doing so. You have been asked to provide such a reason.
You have failed spectacularly even to address the matter. You preoccupy yourself with minutia, act petulant, and display little acquaintance with the subject matter. You give no indication that you ever seriously considered, and thus rationally eliminated, this possibility for yourself.
You assume. You ask your readers to assume. This is not reason.
_____
Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2007 11:02 AM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2007 8:28 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
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