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Author Topic:   Alan Alda's polio
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5499 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 1 of 71 (423554)
09-22-2007 9:14 PM


In Message 3 kuresu happened to mention that Alan Alda died. I may be wrong, kuresu, but I don't think so. At least I hope not. I have enjoyed him a lot. We are genrational cohorts”he was born in 1936 and I in '39. This all brings me to my proposal for a new thread (but I'm not sure where). I will call it "Alan Alda's polio" because I heard him explain how Sister Elizabeth Kinney came to his house once and cured him of it.
I believe it was on NPR where I hear Alda talk about his life and how he was struck down by polio as a kid and then cured of it by an Australian bush nurse named Sister Elizabeth Kinney. He spoke of the controversy surrounding her credentials and her methods of treatment of polio. When Alda’s desperate mother appealed to Sister Kinney, who happened to be traveling through their town at the time, Kinney came over to their house, examined him and performed her treatment on him. He described it as very “uncomfortable and lasted and long time.” He went on the explain how his mother helped Kinney apply woolen blankets soaked in very hot water on his inflicted hips and legs. His family continued this treatment over a period of weeks. Before she left Sister Kinney also instructed his family on a regime of physical-therapy treatments to use after the inflammation and partial paralysis from his polio had subsided. He eventually recovered.
Now, the medical establishment in Sister Kinney's own country hated and vilified her. Wiki says:
quote:
Between 1935 and 1940 she traveled extensively throughout Australia helping to set up clinics. She also made two trips to England where she set up a treatment clinic in St. Mary's hospital near Carshalton where there is a rehabilitation facility to this day. In 1938 the Health Department of New South Wales subjected her work to a medical Royal Commission whose findings condemned her unorthodox procedures as 'dangerous', 'damaging', 'costly', and 'cruel'.
The medical establishment in the United States also hated her, sniping at her credentials and discouraging her approach to treating polio. Instead the US medical establishment joined up with the US pharmaceutical establishment to lead the fight against polio and find a drug to cure it or develop a vaccine. Of course this was an epic milestone in sainthood of American medicine.
And yet, as a biologist, I have to ask a simple question: Why isn’t it entirely possible that the polio virus could have been attacked timely with heat? Obviously, the virus could not withstand Sister Kinney's timely heat treatment, and this was tested over and over in different countries. (Yeah, but who's going to make any money on heat?) Why wasn’t Sister Elizabeth Kinney exalted instead of scorned? Why wasn’t her treatment encouraged at that critical time of our history. (btw: I also I grew up in that frightening shadow of polio.)
And more to the heart of the matter: Has the medical/pharmaceutical complex (not to be confused with the military/industrial complex) truly served the cause of relieving human suffering? Or has it served the treasuries of capitalism, thus becoming a commodity rather of a service?
”HM

Replies to this message:
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 Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-23-2007 5:54 PM Fosdick has replied

  
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Message 2 of 71 (423611)
09-23-2007 7:50 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Michael
Member (Idle past 4637 days)
Posts: 199
From: USA
Joined: 05-14-2005


Message 3 of 71 (423617)
09-23-2007 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Fosdick
09-22-2007 9:14 PM


kuresu did not say that Alan Alda had died.
kuresu writes:
pretty cool to see Alan Alda narrate this. That is, it's cool to see him somewhere outside of M*A*S*H.
I heard about Alex dying a while back. Seeing this video on him is definitely cool. Far better than words.
Thanks for the link.
Cheers.

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 71 (423622)
09-23-2007 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Fosdick
09-22-2007 9:14 PM


Actually, not that big a deal
Actually, that's not quite the real story.
Sister Elizabeth Kinney had been trained as a "Bush Nurse" working under the supervision of a traveling doctor and later during WWI served as a British Army nurse. In 1911 she encountered her first patient with polio. At that time (late 1890 to early 1900s) the normal treatment was immobilization. Instead she treated the symptoms by using hot packs to relieve the pain and physical therapy to try to restore mobility and function.
Her methods were successful and adopted and spread throughout the medical profession as her successes became known. In 1940 she traveled to the US where with support from both public and private sources she established a clinic in Minneapolis, Minnesota in 1942.
Far from being hated, her methods became the norm and are still the suggested method of treatment for symptomatic relief and also used with other similar conditions.
While she was certainly controversial there is no indication she was hated or that her methods were treated differently than any other new treatment regime. She received support in her native Australia, throughout the British Empire and in the US.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5499 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 5 of 71 (423627)
09-23-2007 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Michael
09-23-2007 9:28 AM


My mistake
Michael writes:
kuresu did not say that Alan Alda had died.
Yes, you're right. It was Alex the parrot who died, of course, not Alan the actor. Thanks for correcting me.
”HM

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5499 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 6 of 71 (423633)
09-23-2007 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
09-23-2007 10:07 AM


Re: Actually, not that big a deal
jar writes:
Actually, that's not quite the real story...While she was certainly controversial there is no indication she was hated or that her methods were treated differently than any other new treatment regime. She received support in her native Australia, throughout the British Empire and in the US.
When I heard Alda tell his story over the radio I started to recall more of the fear and loathing attending that polio epidemic. I knew kids back then who caught polio and it was scary. My mother was an RN and worked in a doctor's office during that time. She sometimes talked about the Sister Kinney controversy. The doctor she worked for didn't like Kinney's approach to polio. Instead he used sulfa drugs and later penicillin to treat almost everything from polio to pink eye. So my mother sided with the medical establishment against Sister Kinney. I can remember, even at that early age, the controversy about her "bush medicine" and her alleged "cruel and unorthodox tactics." And, as I mentioned in the OP, the New South Wales medical Royal Commission labeled her procedures as 'dangerous', 'damaging', 'costly', and 'cruel'.
Now, I may have had an isolated experience up there in Lambertville, MI, contradicting your observations, which I greatly appreciate. It has been quite a few years since then, and over that period I have had both good and bad experiences with the medical esstablsihment. Recently, however, they have been more bad than good. This past year I watch one of my closest friends get his cancerous prostate radiated with pellets...and then have his bladder removed because the radiation treatment was too strong and cause 26 cancerous polyps in his bladder tissue. Before that, I watch my first wife die of central nervous system lymphoma, which was aggravated and maybe even accelerated by the medical treatments prescribed. These cases are only a few of the ones that have turned against the American medical establishment. And when I watch those ads on TV that tell you to go ask your doctor if the little purple pill is right for you, I can be pretty sure that pill pushing is a large part of what doctors do today instead of real doctoring.
At age 68 I've chosen not to got to doctors anymore, unless I'm sure they won't screw me up (resetting broken bones and stuff like that). The saddest truth about this whole medical mess is that most doctors are just trying to do the right thing. But the force of capitalism gets in their way when medical insurers, lawyers, and drug companies put themselves ahead of the patients.
That's my opinion, of course, and you are entitled to yours too.
”HM

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 Message 4 by jar, posted 09-23-2007 10:07 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 09-23-2007 12:08 PM Fosdick has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 71 (423635)
09-23-2007 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Fosdick
09-23-2007 11:57 AM


Re: Actually, not that big a deal
Again, your only cite for the assertion that she was hated and vilified is the one from Wiki and even that is pretty skimpy, since although it alleges what you say, the terms hate or vilify are not used in the article anywhere and the very next paragraph says:
Between 1935 and 1940 she traveled extensively throughout Australia helping to set up clinics. She also made two trips to England where she set up a treatment clinic in St. Mary's hospital near Carshalton where there is a rehabilitation facility to this day. In 1938 the Health Department of New South Wales subjected her work to a medical Royal Commission whose findings condemned her unorthodox procedures as 'dangerous', 'damaging', 'costly', and 'cruel'[1].
In 1940 the Government of New South Wales sent Kenny and her adopted daughter Mary (who had become an expert in Kenny's method), to America so that they could present her clinical method for treating polio victims to American doctors.
So while you have the assertion that in 1938 her methods were found to be " 'dangerous', 'damaging', 'costly', and 'cruel'' we see by 1940 that not only were her methods adopted and approved but she was being sent by that very same government to teach the methods in other areas.
Further, and from the same article, "In 1934, the Queensland health department began an evaluation of her work which led to the establishment of Kenny clinics in several cities in Australia." so other regional governments in Australia had also tested and approved her methods.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Fosdick, posted 09-23-2007 11:57 AM Fosdick has replied

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5499 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 8 of 71 (423648)
09-23-2007 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
09-23-2007 12:08 PM


Re: Actually, not that big a deal
jar, you're right about what Wiki says about Sister Elizabeth Kinney. But I have my own recollection on the matter, with which I am trying to make a case against the American medical establishment on somewhat diiferent grounds and with a different POV, using polio as a launching pad.
I've watched with interest the entire polio drama play out within my lifetime. It was a weird, dark time: The Great Degression, Hitler, Pearl Harbor, Hiroshima, and that indiscriminate terrorist called "Polio." There was strong opinion voiced at that time against Sister Kinney's therapeutic approaches. I rememeber it quite well. And there was also "The March of Dimes" and "The Mother's March On Polio." My mother, along with all the others across the country went out into their neighborhoods on a designated night and collected donations door-to-door to "fund the reasearch for a polio vaccine." First Salk was a saint for developing it; then he was villified for his methods. And perhaps rightly so. An interesting account of this appears in American Scientist, The puzzling origin of AIDS. Sorry, but I can only link you to an abstract unless you are a member/subscriber. What is easily avaiable, though, is this link summarizing Polio vaccines and the origin of AIDS: some key writings.
So, did "The Mother's March On Polio" ultimately contribute to the AIDS pandemic. Did the sloppy and dangerous vaccine trials in Africa set HIV into motion? Did modern medicine, with its well-intentioned but blundering attempts to hurry up and make a polio vaccine, unwittingly produce another disaster? Would we all have been better off restricting our counter-polio procedures to Sister Kinney's therapy, and to avoid vaccines in the frist place?
Who would have guesssed that the polio epidemic was set off by the advent of indoor plumbing? It was more sanitary than the old outhouse, of course; indeed it was sanitary enough to prevent many infants from contacting the polio virus when they were young enough to quickly build their own natural immunity against it. Thus the ecology of polio, as well as the immunology against it, must be understood in combination to get a meaning view of those dire risks to public health.
”HM

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 Message 7 by jar, posted 09-23-2007 12:08 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 71 (423651)
09-23-2007 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Fosdick
09-23-2007 1:40 PM


Re: Actually, not that big a deal
jar, you're right about what Wiki says about Sister Elizabeth Kinney. But I have my own recollection on the matter, with which I am trying to make a case against the American medical establishment on somewhat diiferent grounds and with a different POV, using polio as a launching pad.
Then if you wish to support your position you need to actually use material that supports your position.
So, did "The Mother's March On Polio" ultimately contribute to the AIDS pandemic. Did the sloppy and dangerous vaccine trials in Africa set HIV into motion? Did modern medicine, with its well-intentioned but blundering attempts to hurry up and make a polio vaccine, unwittingly produce another disaster? Would we all have been better off restricting our counter-polio procedures to Sister Kinney's therapy, and to avoid vaccines in the frist place?
Unless you can supply some support for your position it is just more nonsense.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Fosdick, posted 09-23-2007 1:40 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5499 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 10 of 71 (423654)
09-23-2007 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
09-23-2007 1:52 PM


Re: Actually, not that big a deal
Unless you can supply some support for your position it is just more nonsense.
...errr, I thought I did: The puzzling origin of AIDS and Polio vaccines and the origin of AIDS: some key writings.
btw: "Just more nonsense"? Nah! I think you need to "supply some support" for your rude accusation.
”HM

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 Message 9 by jar, posted 09-23-2007 1:52 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 71 (423656)
09-23-2007 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Fosdick
09-23-2007 2:05 PM


Re: Actually, not that big a deal
You need to provide reasoning and argument to support your position. You've been here long enough to know we do not debate websites.
So far the issue you have presented in the OP was shown to be an example of misrepresentation and quotemining.
AbE: Do you want to talk about the issue of unintended consequences?
Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 12 of 71 (423657)
09-23-2007 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Fosdick
09-22-2007 9:14 PM


I am not medically qualified to speak to the subject of heat and its effectiveness in polio treatment. What I do know from your OP is that (1) many professionals who were qualified to evaluate the matter regarded Kinney's treatments as dangerous and that (2) I am in very bad hands with the author of this OP. You are strongly biased in Kinney's favour, eager to spin the story with prejudiced terms and unsupported accusations, and unwilling to consider all the possibilities.
Hoot:
Now, the medical establishment in Sister Kinney's own country hated and vilified her.
You never establish grounds for your accusations of hate. You establish only that her activities were criticized by medical professionals. You choose to present this as personal hate rather than consider all the possibilities.
You quoted Wikipedia: In 1938 the Health Department of New South Wales subjected her work to a medical Royal Commission whose findings condemned her unorthodox procedures as 'dangerous', 'damaging', 'costly', and 'cruel'.
The article mentions no personal attacks. It describes 'findings'--that would refer to research, yes?--about Kinney's 'unorthodox procedures.'
Evaluation of medical procedures by medical professionals is not hate. It's fair game.
Please address the findings.
The medical establishment in the United States also hated her,
No supporting evidence. Until you have it this is unwarranted slander, Take 2.
I note that you speak of Kinney as a distinct person but routinely represent health professionals in her day as a faceless 'medical establishment.'
As it happens, those people were real, too. And in the 1930s they were busy. Polio was a scourge and many of the patients they treated were penniless. Few could afford to travel much and most were did well to keep already existing clinics financially afloat, even with substantial government support. Research institutions were knocking themselves out to find new treatments.
sniping at her credentials
You mean they called attention to something amiss? Was something amiss?
and discouraging her approach to treating polio.
Most medical professionals do discourage their patients from seeking ineffective treatments research shows to be dangerous, damaging, costly and cruel. They're funny that way.
And you think those findings were misleading because... why?
Instead the US medical establishment
(Cue ominous minor chord in the trombones)
joined up with the US pharmaceutical establishment
(Enter booming timpani and basses)
to lead the fight against polio and find a drug to cure it or develop a vaccine.
Oh MY GOD--They DIDN'T!!!!
The bastards.
Of course this was an epic milestone in sainthood of American medicine.
Which obviously doesn't deserve its halo. The nerve--developing a cure for polio that puts saints like Sister Kinney out of business!
And yet, as a biologist, I have to ask a simple question: Why isn’t it entirely possible that the polio virus could have been attacked timely with heat?
And yet, as a thinking person I have to ask a simple question: do you really think nobody asked this until you did?
You just quoted an article that mentioned findings from a Royal Commission study. And there were other studies and hearings. Somebody was asking.
As well they should, quite aside from the urgent humanitarian concerns. Deliberate suppression of a potential cure for polio would be grounds for a class-action lawsuit of historical proportions.
Obviously, the virus could not withstand Sister Kinney's timely heat treatment, and this was tested over and over in different countries.
Your own account makes it plain that the merits of Kinney's treatments were not universally obvious.
(Yeah, but who's going to make any money on heat?)
Ms Kinney, from the looks of it.
She didn't travel around the world and set up all those clinics during a global Depression using Art Linkletter money. You tell us yourself that the New South Wales findings condemned the 'cost' of her treatments.
How much did Ms Kinney charge her patients for a house call?
Why wasn’t Sister Elizabeth Kinney exalted instead of scorned?
Why wasn’t her treatment encouraged at that critical time of our history?
Looks like she got a fair shake. If the response was not everything you wish it was, perhaps it's because some research findings suggested her unorthodox treatments to be damaging, costly, dangerous, and cruel to polio sufferers.
Just a possibility.
Now here's a question back: why didn't Kinney just issue a press release telling everyone in the world how to cure polio at home with heat applications and no medical training?
(btw: I also I grew up in that frightening shadow of polio.)
This mawkish attempt at drama is neither here nor there on the subject of Kinney. At best it just reminds everyone that people were scared and many would likely try anything.
And more to the heart of the matter: Has the medical/pharmaceutical complex (not to be confused with the military/industrial complex)
Of course we're supposed to confuse it with the military-industrial complex. That's why you introduced the term. You are drawing a cartoon.
You still have not addressed the research findings you brought up yourself.
truly served the cause of relieving human suffering?
Most people would say a cure for polio counts for something in 'truly serving the cause of relieving human suffering.'
But what about Kinney? Why didn't she issue that press release I just mentioned? Didn't she want to relieve more suffering?
Or has it served the treasuries of capitalism, thus becoming a commodity rather of a service?
Your readers are now invited to vent their spleens about the state of American health care in 2007 while Ms Kinney slips out the back door of the 1930s with her black bag.
Not so fast.
You brought up the subject of Kinney and Alda and polio. Let's stay with that subject you raised.
You have characterized Ms Kinney a martyr and flatly stated that medical professionals in two countries acted out of personal 'hate'. Yet you have failed to support these statements. And you have not considered every possibility.
It's possible--just possible--that some medical professionals of Kinney's day conducted research on Kinney's treatments and were genuinely appalled.
Please address this possibility.
_____
Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : brev.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo.

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 Message 13 by Fosdick, posted 09-23-2007 4:00 PM Archer Opteryx has replied
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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5499 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 13 of 71 (423671)
09-23-2007 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Archer Opteryx
09-23-2007 2:14 PM


Sister Kinney's "black bag"
You never establish grounds for your accusations of hate. ......You have characterized Ms Kinney a martyr and flatly stated that medical professionals in two countries acted out of personal 'hate'...Your readers are now invited to vent their spleens about the state of American health care in 2007 while Ms Kinney slips out the back door of the 1930s with her black bag.
Oh, come on! I never said "...personal 'hate'". So you are misquoting me and your credibility goes down with that. I was writing to a street audience in street vernacular, not to an audience of linguistic psychologists. Furthermore, whoever said she had a "black bag." Wiki doesn't say anything about her "black bag." "Black bag" is as much a metaphor applied to medicine as "hate" is metaphor used in common speech. Get over it!
You brought up the subject of Kinney and Alda and polio. Let's stay with that subject you raised.
You have characterized Ms Kinney a martyr and flatly stated that medical professionals in two countries acted out of personal 'hate'. Yet you have failed to support these statements. And you have not considered every possibility.
It's possible--just possible--that some medical professionals of Kinney's day conducted research on Kinney's treatments and were genuinely appalled.
Please address this possibility.
Sure it's possible. Just as it was possible for medical professionals to reserach the origin of the polio vaccine and discover that AIDS may have been one of its disasterous byproducts. Is it possible--just possible--that you are an appologist for the medical-pharmaceutucal complex?
I'm making only a simple point here about modern medicine: It ain't that far beyond blood letting, IMHO.
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-23-2007 2:14 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 71 (423672)
09-23-2007 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Archer Opteryx
09-23-2007 2:14 PM


On Sister Kinney
It's possible--just possible--that some medical professionals of Kinney's day conducted research on Kinney's treatments and were genuinely appalled.
Please address this possibility.
Actually, her methods were adopted all over the world and totally changed the symptomatic treatment given to polio patients.
Elizabeth Kinney is one of the pioneers of physical rehabilitation. Her methods were not rejected as Hoot implies. Nor did she ever claim that she could cure Polio.
Polio was a scourge, but not always fatal. FDR and my aunt are good examples of folk with Polio, folk that went on to lead long and active lives.
The big contribution of Sister Kinney was in introducing physical therapy in addition to hot packs as a method of relieving the pain associated with recovery and existence with Polio.
Alan Alda contracted polio in 1943 IIRC, which is several years after Sister Kinney moved to the US and began teaching her techniques. Remember at that time there was no cure for Polio, and the best hope for folk was to minimize the damage and hope for a recovery.
There were other advances being made during that period. The invention of the Iron Lung in 1928 and the improved Emerson Iron Lung in 1931, advanced braces that allowed greater mobility and improvements in small areas like shoes and support hose also made enormous changes in the quality of life of those who caught polio.
We need to remember that 90% or more of the cases of polio were asymptomatic. An additional 4-8% of the cases were minor illnesses, 1-2% were non-paralytic meningitis and only 0.1 to 0.5% of the cases resulted in paralytic poliomyelitis.
The horrendous nature of the disease and the fact that it was highly contagious and epidemic though made it a frightening reality regardless of the actual statistics. As methods of maintaining life improved, the visibility of polio also increased.
BUT...
the key was still to find a way of preventing polio.
And that was finally accomplished in 1952 with the Salk Vaccine and ten years later with the Sabin Vaccine.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 71 (423687)
09-23-2007 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Fosdick
09-22-2007 9:14 PM


Peddlers and profiteers
And more to the heart of the matter: Has the medical/pharmaceutical complex (not to be confused with the military/industrial complex) truly served the cause of relieving human suffering? Or has it served the treasuries of capitalism, thus becoming a commodity rather of a service?
I think its a double-edged sword. Sure, there is no denying that the pharmaceutical industry needs sick people to stay in business. But hey, the tobacco companies need smokers too, but you don't see them making cigarettes any more healthy, now do we?
It is disturbing to see pharmaceutical companies as merchants of death. At the same time though, these companies are in competition with one another. Its in their best interest to try valiantly to stop a disease.
Its the same principle with healthcare. In a socialist healthcare setting, there is no incentive to come out with the latest and greatest drugs/treatments, especially since funding is limited. But if you privatize medicine, then it forces the industry to grow out of necessity. Its therefore in their best interest to ensure they have a loyal base buying their products which has helped them.
So, yes, there is a dichotomy there. Its a little disturbing that we peddle and profit off of death. But at the same time, that competition is the very thing that yields the most fruit. Everybody ends up winning in the long run as a result of that.

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

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