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Author Topic:   Alan Alda's polio
iano
Member (Idle past 18 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 16 of 71 (423702)
09-23-2007 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
09-23-2007 5:54 PM


Re: Peddlers and profiteers
quote:
So, yes, there is a dichotomy there. It's a little disturbing that we peddle and profit off of death. But at the same time, that competition is the very thing that yields the most fruit. Everybody ends up winning in the long run as a result of that.

Are you saying that avoidance of pain is always a good thing (pharmaceutically speaking). I mean, given that pain is issued forth so frequently for our benefit...


This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 17 of 71 (423703)
09-23-2007 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by iano
09-23-2007 8:13 PM


Re: Peddlers and profiteers
Are you saying that avoidance of pain is always a good thing (pharmaceutically speaking). I mean, given that pain is issued forth so frequently for our benefit.

No, that wasn't what I was referring to, though I would agree that masking pain is often just removing the symptoms as opposed to actually dealing with what ever ails you.

Where have you been hiding, stranger? :)

Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : No reason given.


"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias
This message is a reply to:
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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3577 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 18 of 71 (423704)
09-23-2007 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
09-23-2007 4:04 PM


Re: On Sister Kinney
jar writes:

We need to remember that 90% or more of the cases of polio were asymptomatic.


I didn't know this. You must be a student of polio. Do you think it is fair to say that before indoor plumbing (and before the polio epidemic) most of the infants were naturally innoculated with the polio virus as a result of those contaminated conditions associated with outhouses? Maybe polio is naturally asymptomatic in babies. Would you happen to know?

Returning to my grind against the medical establishment in America, I should say that most doctors I know of are doing their level best to help people inspite of all the obstacles set up against them. Some doctors I know of, however, are entrepreneurs first and physicians second. And some like to perform more biopsies than necessary, in my opinion, just to keep their labs busy. It's really a shame that America cannot provide free or affordable health care to her citizens by way of a regulated, single-payer program. And I think we should free our doctors of frivolous law suits, too, reducing their costs of insurance. The capitalistic element might then fall off a little bit, and doctors might actually be able to help more people in a less badgered and expensive way.

Personally, I think drugs have screwed up America, and not the kind you buy on the street. I think pharmaceutal companies are sending the message that drugs are the answer to everything. Just look at the ads on TV. Today, even, during NFL football, you have to get a full dose of Viagra and how manly it will make you feel. Ah, yes, and he dramatically disappears up the elevator to show her his drug-erected penis. But they warn him to be careful if his hard-on lasts too long. Don't want to whack it on the door jam, you know.

What's the message here? 'Hey, stud, take this pill and you're good to go 'til she can't take it anymore. Score! Score! You horny animal!'

Doctors hand out Viagra prescriptions like love candy. What has become of our medical establishment, pandering to patients who see on TV how some special pill makes people walk blishfully on the beach holding hands at sunset? I object to that. It's drug orientation for a better life. Happiness by prescription. Nah, it's not what our drug companies should be doing to make America better.

Returning to the central question: Has capitalism corrupted the medical-pharmaceutal complex? I think it has, but probably by necessity, given the fact that we are a capitalistic democracy. OK, let it be that. But give more people affordable health care of high quality that is not burdened by pressures from drug companies and ambulance chasers.

—HM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 09-23-2007 4:04 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 09-23-2007 8:58 PM Fosdick has responded
 Message 23 by Omnivorous, posted 09-23-2007 9:11 PM Fosdick has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 71 (423706)
09-23-2007 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Fosdick
09-23-2007 8:48 PM


On Polio
I didn't know this. You must be a student of polio. Do you think it is fair to say that before indoor plumbing (and before the polio epidemic) most of the infants were naturally innoculated with the polio virus as a result of those contaminated conditions associated with outhouses? Maybe polio is naturally asymptomatic in babies. Would you happen to know?

No, I don't think that.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3577 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 20 of 71 (423707)
09-23-2007 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
09-23-2007 5:54 PM


Re: Peddlers and profiteers
nj writes:

Its the same principle with healthcare. In a socialist healthcare setting, there is no incentive to come out with the latest and greatest drugs/treatments, especially since funding is limited. But if you privatize medicine, then it forces the industry to grow out of necessity. Its therefore in their best interest to ensure they have a loyal base buying their products which has helped them.


But is there no other road back to The Garden than the one paved with drugs? I suppose it's possible that Huxley's Doors of Perception are now open like cans of worms. Is there any hope of herding back into the can? Will all real men someday take Viagra to pork their honies up the wall?

—HM


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3577 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 21 of 71 (423708)
09-23-2007 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
09-23-2007 8:58 PM


Re: On Polio
jar writes:

No, I don't think that.


Do you have an alternative theory for how the polio epidemic got started?

—HM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 09-23-2007 8:58 PM jar has responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 22 of 71 (423709)
09-23-2007 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Fosdick
09-23-2007 9:06 PM


Re: On Polio
sure

Growth of cities.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1045 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 23 of 71 (423710)
09-23-2007 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Fosdick
09-23-2007 8:48 PM


Re: On Sister Kinney
Hoot Mon writes:

Maybe polio is naturally asymptomatic in babies. Would you happen to know?

According to Wikipedia ("poliomyelitis"), 90% of polio infections are asymptomatic.

It appears the odds were that Alda would have experienced the same outcome whether Sister Kinney stopped by or not.


Real things always push back.
-William James

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This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 247 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 24 of 71 (423759)
09-24-2007 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
09-23-2007 5:54 PM


Re: Peddlers and profiteers
quote:
In a socialist healthcare setting, there is no incentive to come out with the latest and greatest drugs/treatments, especially since funding is limited.

Except, you know, that it would be helping people.

Maybe, if the American culture didn't train everyone, from infancy, to be mainly selfish and concerned with money and and the accumulation material goods, and instead trained them to understand that wealth and things aren't important but helping one's fellow humans is, there would be "incentive" to develop great treatments and drugs.

Funny that the country with, as you put it, the most incentive to come out with the "latest and greatest" treatments and drugs is also the country that seems to not be bothered that 46 million of it's citizens have no healthcare insurance.


This message is a reply to:
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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3577 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 25 of 71 (423798)
09-24-2007 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
09-23-2007 9:07 PM


On causes of the polio epidemic
When I asked jar for an alternative cause of said polio epidemic, besides the advent of indoor plumbing, he replied:

sure

Growth of cities.


His alternative is simplistic and not very convincing. Here are two sites that support my contention about how the twentieth-century polio epidemic got started:

1. From the Howard Highes Medical Center on Indoor plumbing and the polio epidemic:

quote:
Ironically, the advanced state of public hygiene in most industrialized countries contributed to the century's epidemics. Infants or very young children became infected when open sewers were rampant, but their disease was so mild that many parents did not realize their children had polio. This "silent" infection provided lasting immunity. With the advent of indoor plumbing and other modern sanitary conditions, children were not exposed to the poliovirus in infancy and did not develop immunity. As a result, they were vulnerable to disease in late childhood and adulthood, when it posed a much more serious threat.

2. From the World Travel Center:

quote:
Spread in ways similar to the common cold or flu, polio was more rare when sanitation was poor. Improvements in waste disposal and the widespread use of indoor plumbing made epidemics of polio appear with regularity in the developed world, primarily in cities during the summer.
Indeed the growth of cities may have been associated with that polio epidemic, but probably not until they began to improve their sanitary conditions with indoor plumbing.

—HM


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 Message 22 by jar, posted 09-23-2007 9:07 PM jar has responded

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3577 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 26 of 71 (423800)
09-24-2007 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Omnivorous
09-23-2007 9:11 PM


Etiology 101
Omniverous writes:

According to Wikipedia ("poliomyelitis"), 90% of polio infections are asymptomatic.

It appears the odds were that Alda would have experienced the same outcome whether Sister Kinney stopped by or not.


I don't follow your etiologically reasoning. Are you saying that Alda would not have had any polio symptoms at all if Sister Kinney had not stoppped by? Alda was not part of the 90% you mentioned. He already had polio symptoms by the time Sister Kinney was recruited.

—HM


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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3577 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 27 of 71 (423803)
09-24-2007 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by nator
09-24-2007 8:26 AM


Re: Peddlers and profiteers
nator writes:

Funny that the country with, as you put it, the most incentive to come out with the "latest and greatest" treatments and drugs is also the country that seems to not be bothered that 46 million of it's citizens have no healthcare insurance.


Amen! And yet America is the self-appointed Champion of Democracy for building a New World Order out of its own splendid image.

—HM


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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 28 of 71 (423804)
09-24-2007 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Fosdick
09-24-2007 11:15 AM


Re: On causes of the polio epidemic
Indeed the growth of cities may have been associated with that polio epidemic, but probably not until they began to improve their sanitary conditions with indoor plumbing.

I asked earlier if you wanted to talk about the issue of unintended consequences.

Certainly improving sanitation isolates folk from early exposure to many viruses, and in particular the ones borne by exposure to waste byproducts.

So what?

Improved sanitation also provided innumerable other benefits such as reducing the transmission of far more serious and life threatening diseases.

For the most part, the "Polio Epidemic" was the result of improving technology, increased visibility and the media.

As pointed out, the very vast majority of polio cases are asymptomatic, the person doesn't even know he or she has polio, and in the remaining cases, only a small percentage are life threatening.

However, beginning in 1928 we developed technology that allowed many of those with even in the most serious cases to continue living, however in a very visible and media ready way. The images of people gathered into wards filled with iron lungs were just made for media exposure.

Still, even at the height of the "Polio Epidemic", the Great Epidemic of 1952, only 57,600 Americans contracted polio. That is contracted polio, not died of polio.

Certainly improved sanitation can keep people from contracting diseases earlier in life and those, like polio that are primarily asymptomatic might provide some small advantage by early exposure. However, that is a minor issue compared to all of the other waste borne diseases that are NOT generally asymptomatic and definitely are life threatening during early exposure.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3577 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 29 of 71 (423818)
09-24-2007 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
09-24-2007 11:50 AM


Re: On causes of the polio epidemic
jar writes:

So what?

Improved sanitation also provided innumerable other benefits such as reducing the transmission of far more serious and life threatening diseases...Certainly improved sanitation can keep people from contracting diseases earlier in life and those, like polio that are primarily asymptomatic might provide some small advantage by early exposure. However, that is a minor issue compared to all of the other waste borne diseases that are NOT generally asymptomatic and definitely are life threatening during early exposure.


Well, you're right about that. But I was not really as interested in the relative value of sanitation—of course it makes things better. I am interested in looking back at what we didn't know then and trying to find out how to put that learning to good use. And, being an ecologist, I am interested in how such a simple thing as indoor plumbing can be a hidden monster in a etiological context.

Still, even at the height of the "Polio Epidemic", the Great Epidemic of 1952, only 57,600 Americans contracted polio. That is contracted polio, not died of polio.

I lived through that at a vulnerable age. A friend and basketball star at my school got polio and it shriveled up his left leg. It was pretty scary. (Where was Sister Kinney when he needed her? Alas, there were still many doctors who looked down their noses at her methods.) Our parents were freaked out because they remembered all too well the so-called Spanish Flu epidemic following WWI. The polio epidemic was the next big public health scare.

—HM


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 Message 28 by jar, posted 09-24-2007 11:50 AM jar has responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 30 of 71 (423821)
09-24-2007 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Fosdick
09-24-2007 1:13 PM


Re: On causes of the polio epidemic
I lived through that at a vulnerable age. A friend and basketball star at my school got polio and it shriveled up his left leg. It was pretty scary. (Where was Sister Kinney when he needed her? Alas, there were still many doctors who looked down their noses at her methods.)

Except so far you have not shown that "many doctors who looked down their noses at her methods."

I also lived through that period, had family members that were also afflicted with polio, even a friend we visited weekly who was in one of the iron lungs.

Our parents were freaked out because they remembered all too well the so-called Spanish Flu epidemic following WWI. The polio epidemic was the next big public health scare.

Yes, polio was a "Health Scare" with pool closings and fear every summer. However that was also in the 1940s and 1950s and honestly, much of the US at that time was also still without indoor plumbing or municipal water and sewer connections.

You also minimize all of the other advances that happened during that short period, little things like the discovery of antibiotics. Every advance also carries some risks, and often unintended risks. Improvements in sanitation means that babies do not get exposed to many viruses they might have were there less sanitation, antibiotics can lead to drug resistant strains (something by the way that was pointed out even before the first such antibiotics hit the market), improved life sustaining methods can create a quality of life that can be questioned.

The key is to look at overall results.

Here is a list of countries by infant mortality

Can you make a case that infant mortality is lower in those countries without widespread indoor plumbing and sanitation?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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