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Author Topic:   Alan Alda's polio
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 46 of 71 (424302)
09-26-2007 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Fosdick
09-26-2007 1:27 PM


Re: Achtung!
From YOUR source.

1) Most doctors and medical organizations pigheadedly denounce Sister Kenny and reject her technique. The facts: practically all orthopedists acknowledge medicine's debt to Sister Kenny and employ her treatment in whole or in part. The National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis alone has spent $2 million for advancement of physical therapy, including the Kenny technique. But even when they use the Kenny treatment, most doctors agree that polio is a disease of the nervous system, vigorously reject the Kenny theory that it is primarily a muscle-&-skin disorder.

2) All polio victims treated by Sister Kenny get up and walk; those treated by other orthopedists become lifelong 'brace-&-crutch cripples. The facts: Sister Kenny's record in Minneapolis, over a five-year period, has just about matched the average for all modern polio treatment: 6% deaths, 16% remaining severely paralyzed.

So the very link you provided refutes the point you are trying to make.

Edited by jar, : Change YOU to YOUR


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 1:27 PM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 2:18 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16219
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 47 of 71 (424303)
09-26-2007 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Fosdick
09-26-2007 1:27 PM


Re: Achtung!
Hoot Mon writes:

If you reject my personal testamony as evidence, Ringo, then you would likewise reject Anne Frank's.

I do, of course. I also reject the movie versions of her life as evidence of the Holocaust. There is real evidence of the Holocaust to back up the anecdotal evidence.

All I'm asking from you is real evidence to back up your anecdotes.

I have an anecdote too: I remember taking the polio vaccine in the early sixties. I remember it as a pink liquid in a little paper cup.

But I don't expect anybody to take that as "evidence". I expect them to take it as the possibly/probably inaccurate memory of a ten-year-old.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 1:27 PM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 7:51 PM ringo has not yet responded

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3573 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 48 of 71 (424312)
09-26-2007 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
09-26-2007 1:35 PM


Re: Achtung!
jar writes:

So the very link you provided refutes the point you are trying to make.


Ah, you're much too predictable, jar. I knew you'd say that. Which is evidence of your refusal to see my point. Whether you agree or not, there was an attitude issue at the time that piited the American medical establishment against Sister Kinney. Maybe those who made propoganda films about it were wrongly biased against the medical establsihment. But it was still real back then.

From the SOURCE:

quote:
...The facts: practically all orthopedists acknowledge medicine's debt to Sister Kenny and employ her treatment in whole or in part. The National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis alone has spent $2 million for advancement of physical therapy, including the Kenny technique. ..

"Practically all orthopedists" don't add up to the Amerrican medical establishment. And the latter statement is even less convincing: "$2 million...including the Kinney technique..."? That's not much of an endorsement from the rich American medical establsihment.

—HM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 09-26-2007 1:35 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 09-26-2007 2:38 PM Fosdick has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 49 of 71 (424318)
09-26-2007 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Fosdick
09-26-2007 2:18 PM


Re: Achtung!
Ah, you're much too predictable, jar. I knew you'd say that. Which is evidence of your refusal to see my point. Whether you agree or not, there was an attitude issue at the time that piited the American medical establishment against Sister Kinney. Maybe those who made propoganda films about it were wrongly biased against the medical establsihment. But it was still real back then.

Except you have so far failed to show ANY evidence of that.

"Practically all orthopedists" don't add up to the Amerrican medical establishment. And the latter statement is even less convincing: "$2 million...including the Kinney technique..."? That's not much of an endorsement from the rich American medical establsihment.

Too funny. Practically all orthopedists sounds reasonable since all she offered was orthopedics and pain management.

And $2 million dollars back then was a pretty healthy sum. That was more than the cost of a Liberty Ship, and that was just ONE example, not the total response.

So do you have any evidence to support your assertions?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 2:18 PM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 7:54 PM jar has responded

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3573 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 50 of 71 (424394)
09-26-2007 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by ringo
09-26-2007 1:36 PM


Re: Achtung!
Percy writes:

All I'm asking from you is real evidence to back up your anecdotes.

Well, OK, then. Would you accept an excerpt of a biography of Sister Kinney from the Spine Hall of Fame?

quote:
Her theories regarding the treatment of children afflicted with polio were brilliant for their time and diametrically different from those of mainstream medicine. For this she was vilified and continually attacked as being a fraud by the medical establishment. Her therapies designed to rehabilitate impaired muscles and to retrain the nervous system were, however, based on careful observation, deduction, and a willingness to listen to her patients. It took great spirit for Sister Kenny to maintain her integrity while under constant attack by the establishment. In 1938 at the behest of Australian physicians a Royal Commission condemned her work as being "unorthodox" and her procedures "dangerous, damaging, costly and cruel."
"...fraud...villified...constant attack by the establishment...unorthodox...dangerous, damaging, costly and cruel..."?

Come on, Ringo, what more do you need? They hated her!

—HM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 09-26-2007 1:36 PM ringo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-28-2007 12:11 PM Fosdick has not yet responded

    
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3573 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 51 of 71 (424395)
09-26-2007 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
09-26-2007 2:38 PM


Re: Achtung!
jar writes:

Except you have so far failed to show ANY evidence of that.


To wit: Message 50.

—HM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 09-26-2007 2:38 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 09-26-2007 8:02 PM Fosdick has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 52 of 71 (424397)
09-26-2007 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Fosdick
09-26-2007 7:54 PM


Re: Achtung!
Not really as tht was already addressed several times in this thread, all the way back in Message 7.

So while you have the assertion that in 1938 her methods were found to be " 'dangerous', 'damaging', 'costly', and 'cruel'' we see by 1940 that not only were her methods adopted and approved but she was being sent by that very same government to teach the methods in other areas.

Further, and from the same article, "In 1934, the Queensland health department began an evaluation of her work which led to the establishment of Kenny clinics in several cities in Australia." so other regional governments in Australia had also tested and approved her methods.

So as early as 1934 not only were her methods accepted but there were state sponsored clinics using her techniques. In addition, only two year after the report you cite the very same government that issued the report in question had not only reversed their position but was sponsoring her to travel overseas to teach her techniques.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 7:54 PM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 8:47 PM jar has responded

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3573 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 53 of 71 (424410)
09-26-2007 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
09-26-2007 8:02 PM


Kool-aide
Sorry, jar, but you can't trump the Spine Hall of Fame with that. And if you think the answer to good health and sound mind comes in pills then you should keep on reading those 800-numbers at the bottom of your TV screen. I'm arguing that special forces exist in capitalism to nourish the profitable and starve the cheap. Sister Kinney bears witness to that, proving that cheap, hot, woolen blankes, when timely applied, will obstruct the cause of the drug industry.

And even today nearly all of those drugs and salves and supplements do nothing at all for you but lighten your wallet. Really, you ought to think about it. Even eating at Mcdonald's is a form of Kool-aid drinking. And then ask youself: Why don't they teach that in high school. And, you know, you can take vitamin C 'til the cows come home and it won't do a goddamn thing for you. Why don't they teach that in high school, too?

I think our public high-school curriculum should include courses on:

1. How to stay away from doctors, and why.

2. How to stay away from drugs, and why.

3. How to find natural and free ways to relieve stress.

4. How to recognize those who would profit from your bad health.

5. How to recognize those who would profit from your good health.

6. How to recognize those who would pee on your shoe and tell you it's raining.

—HM

Edited by Hoot Mon, : spelling


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 09-26-2007 8:02 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 09-26-2007 8:59 PM Fosdick has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 54 of 71 (424411)
09-26-2007 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Fosdick
09-26-2007 8:47 PM


Re: Kool-aide
Trying to change the subject eh?

But the audience can read what is in Message 4, Message 7, Message 14, Message 28, Message 30, Message 42 and Message 44 as well as others in this thread and make their own judgments.

So on the topic of the thread, "Alan Alda's polio" you really haven't presented much at all.

Now you can continue to rant but until you begin presenting some evidence that stands up to examination, there isn't much of a case for justifying your suggested curriculum.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 8:47 PM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Fosdick, posted 09-27-2007 12:30 PM jar has responded

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3573 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 55 of 71 (424556)
09-27-2007 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by jar
09-26-2007 8:59 PM


Re: Kool-aid
jar writes:

Now you can continue to rant but until you begin presenting some evidence that stands up to examination, there isn't much of a case for justifying your suggested curriculum.


My contention all along is that the medical establishment, aligned with the pharmaceutical establishment, has other things on its complex mind than making people healthier. I used key aspects of the polio epidemic as examples. I showed you a statement that appeared in Spine Hall of Fame as evidence of the medical establishment's early attitude against Sister Kinney:

quote:
Her theories regarding the treatment of children afflicted with polio were brilliant for their time and diametrically different from those of mainstream medicine. For this she was vilified and continually attacked as being a fraud by the medical establishment. Her therapies designed to rehabilitate impaired muscles and to retrain the nervous system were, however, based on careful observation, deduction, and a willingness to listen to her patients. It took great spirit for Sister Kenny to maintain her integrity while under constant attack by the establishment. In 1938 at the behest of Australian physicians a Royal Commission condemned her work as being "unorthodox" and her procedures "dangerous, damaging, costly and cruel."
But none this is good enough for you. What more evidence do you need? Where's yours? And, please, don't pass the Kool-Aid my way.

—HM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 09-26-2007 8:59 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 09-27-2007 12:43 PM Fosdick has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 56 of 71 (424559)
09-27-2007 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Fosdick
09-27-2007 12:30 PM


Re: Kool-aid
My contention all along is that the medical establishment, aligned with the pharmaceutical establishment, has other things on its complex mind than making people healthier. I used key aspects of the polio epidemic as examples. I showed you a statement that appeared in Spine Hall of Fame as evidence of the medical establishment's early attitude against Sister Kinney:

Yes, you did enter that as evidence, however I also presented evidence that refuted that assertion. In Message 54 I even provided links to that material and in Message 52 I pointed out that:

So as early as 1934 not only were her methods accepted but there were state sponsored clinics using her techniques. In addition, only two year after the report you cite the very same government that issued the report in question had not only reversed their position but was sponsoring her to travel overseas to teach her techniques.

which is also from one of your own references.

Do you have any evidence that can stand up to examination?

Another AbE:

The really big thing is that Sister Kinney really has NOTHING to do with questions about the Pharmaceutical Industry. What she advocated had nothing to do with finding a cure for polio. It is a false assumption using her as an example anyway. Her procedures were unrelated to curing or avoiding polio, they were only related to pain alleviation and post polio rehabilitation.

So far you have offered nothing related to the question of Big Medicine except some assertions that one unattended consequence of improved hygiene is a possible reduction in early childhood exposure to diseases and the possibility of that exposure building an immune response if the child survived, and one reference that says some early polio may somehow have contributed to the transmittal of aids.

If you want to talk about US Health Care, then fine. Let's address the US Health Care system. But so far nothing you have presented seems to support your position.

Edited by jar, : taht --->that

Edited by jar, : expand


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Fosdick, posted 09-27-2007 12:30 PM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Fosdick, posted 09-27-2007 8:32 PM jar has responded

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3573 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 57 of 71 (424642)
09-27-2007 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by jar
09-27-2007 12:43 PM


Re: Kool-aid
jar writes:

The really big thing is that Sister Kinney really has NOTHING to do with questions about the Pharmaceutical Industry. What she advocated had nothing to do with finding a cure for polio.


Sister Kinney cured polio patients with hot wollen blankets long before Salk and the drug companies developed a vaccine. From my own personal widow on that history, starting about 1943, I saw two things:

1. There was memorable opposition to Sister Kinney in my childhood during the polio epidemic.

2. No kid I knew about who got polio was ever treated using Sister Kinney's technique.

—HM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 09-27-2007 12:43 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 09-27-2007 8:40 PM Fosdick has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 58 of 71 (424646)
09-27-2007 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Fosdick
09-27-2007 8:32 PM


Re: Kool-aid
Sister Kinney cured polio patients with hot wollen blankets long before Salk and the drug companies developed a vaccine.

Again, the evidence does not support that assertion. All that has ever been shown is that her methods helped in relieving pain and in helping with rehabilitation.

And the rest of your post is also not just unsupported it is refuted by the evidence. In fact, from one of your own links as I pointed out in Message 46:

1) Most doctors and medical organizations pigheadedly denounce Sister Kenny and reject her technique. The facts: practically all orthopedists acknowledge medicine's debt to Sister Kenny and employ her treatment in whole or in part. The National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis alone has spent $2 million for advancement of physical therapy, including the Kenny technique. But even when they use the Kenny treatment, most doctors agree that polio is a disease of the nervous system, vigorously reject the Kenny theory that it is primarily a muscle-&-skin disorder.

2) All polio victims treated by Sister Kenny get up and walk; those treated by other orthopedists become lifelong 'brace-&-crutch cripples. The facts: Sister Kenny's record in Minneapolis, over a five-year period, has just about matched the average for all modern polio treatment: 6% deaths, 16% remaining severely paralyzed.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Fosdick, posted 09-27-2007 8:32 PM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2007 11:10 AM jar has responded

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1670 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 59 of 71 (424735)
09-28-2007 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Fosdick
09-26-2007 11:23 AM


Re: credibility
Hoot:

How can you assign "personal hate" to an "establishment"?

That's what I'm asking you, Einstein.

You say an 'establishment' hated a person. Twice.

Now, the medical establishment in Sister Kinney's own country hated and vilified her.

The medical establishment in the United States also hated her

Please offer support for such statements or retract them.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 11:23 AM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2007 11:02 AM Archer Opteryx has responded

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3573 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 60 of 71 (424740)
09-28-2007 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Archer Opteryx
09-28-2007 10:42 AM


Re: credibility
OK, you win. I'll withdraw the word "hate" and replace it "despise." That should clear up your problem.

—HM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-28-2007 10:42 AM Archer Opteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-28-2007 12:32 PM Fosdick has responded

    
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