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Author Topic:   Blasphemy ? What is it ? How is it Done?
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 1 of 52 (230026)
08-05-2005 5:32 AM


I and many others have been,at various times, accused of blasphemy. Other members have suggested it is impossible for a disbeliever to commit the act of Blasphemy.
Example 1
quote:
Why God never received tenure at any University:
1. He had only one major publication.
2. Most of it was in Hebrew.
3. It had no references.
4. It wasn’t published in a refereed journal.
5. Some scholars doubt he actually wrote it.
6. He may have created the world, but what has he done since?
7. The scientific community has been unable to replicate his results.
8. He never got permission from an ethics committee to use human subjects.
9. When one experiment went awry, he simply drowned most of the subjects.
10. His first two students failed, so he expelled them.
11. He rarely came to class, and just told students to read his book.
12. Some say he had his son teach the class.
13. Many students complained they weren’t sure he listened when they spoke to him.
14. Although he only posted 10 requirements for passing, every student failed.
Example 2
quote:
Are the examples or some part of them blasphemous? Why or why not?
Can an atheist commit blasphemy?

This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 05-Aug-2005 05:48 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 08-05-2005 5:50 PM CK has replied
 Message 7 by 1.61803, posted 08-06-2005 12:06 AM CK has not replied
 Message 9 by Nighttrain, posted 08-06-2005 1:58 AM CK has replied
 Message 20 by purpledawn, posted 08-06-2005 1:36 PM CK has replied
 Message 23 by riVeRraT, posted 08-07-2005 7:33 AM CK has not replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 52 (230293)
08-05-2005 5:31 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 52 (230301)
08-05-2005 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
08-05-2005 5:32 AM


Charles.
Balsphemy can be a variety of different things to different people and under different conditions.
I have always thought that any sin required some knowledge that what you are doing was wrong or that you should have such knowledge. A spontaneous act done without foreknowledge would likely not be Blasphemy.
But I also believe that what you often do is simply gratuitous insult. You tend to do things that you know will hurt others. It's more of the playground bully than blasphemy.
An example is this thread. You could have started this thread without including either of the examples. You could have started this thread with the examples as links so that it was not so much a frontal assault.
You chose to make this as offensive to some members as you thought you could get away with. If these were the only such examples I might consider it an oversight, but as you are aware, it is not.
I find your constant goading of certain christians pointless. They find your postings offensive to their religion. What do you accomplish by such tactics other than creating discord?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CK, posted 08-05-2005 5:32 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by CK, posted 08-05-2005 5:55 PM jar has not replied
 Message 5 by CK, posted 08-05-2005 6:00 PM jar has not replied
 Message 6 by CK, posted 08-05-2005 6:08 PM jar has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 4 of 52 (230302)
08-05-2005 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
08-05-2005 5:50 PM


Technical point
quote:
An example is this thread. You could have started this thread without including either of the examples. You could have started this thread with the examples as links so that it was not so much a frontal assault.
We can deal with the rest in a minute but I'm not particularly happy with this - that would have taken a one minute "can you change those to a link". Don't project your faults as a moderator upon me. Moreover, if you had problems with my motivations you should have dealt with that before releasing the topic.
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 05-Aug-2005 06:04 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 08-05-2005 5:50 PM jar has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 5 of 52 (230304)
08-05-2005 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
08-05-2005 5:50 PM


As for the examples - the one is from what appears to be a taught course at a university - therefore, I felt that if it is suitable for discussion in a place of learning, it must be suitable for discussion here.
The second is from a marvel comicbook - again, something that I did not think people would not find overly offensive.
I did consider giving the thread a historical context by using The love that dares to speak its name by James Kirkup.
I started the thread because someone specifically asked for me to be banned on the grounds of Blasphemy, so it got me thinking about the subject. I picked the examples because I thought they were very mild examples to kick off the debate.
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 05-Aug-2005 06:06 PM
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 05-Aug-2005 06:27 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 08-05-2005 5:50 PM jar has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 6 of 52 (230305)
08-05-2005 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
08-05-2005 5:50 PM


More generally - cultural
You could be right about the me trying to offend but you know what? I don't find the things that I post here that offensive, I just don't. I don't mean that they don't offend me, I just don't see them as being that offensive generally.
Cultural - I think it very difficult for someone who is not british to understand this (and I'm sure the other brits will correct me if they feel I'm wrong on this) but for my generation, what is considered offensive is very different to what the older generation would consider offensive or what americans would find offensive. The best recent example was a show that had jesus as a bedwetter in a nappy who got a sexual thrill from shitting himself - is that offensive to people? Most people here thought that was funny - a comedy sketch that had no relationship to the actual message of the christian religion.
Now you need to decide what you want the thread to be about - Are we debating me or the issue? if it's about me, it should have never been promoted but we both know that.
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 05-Aug-2005 06:22 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 08-06-2005 1:02 PM CK has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 7 of 52 (230369)
08-06-2005 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
08-05-2005 5:32 AM


Hi Charles,
Blasphemy is usually a agregeous insult, or defacement, or intentional/willful mockery of God, Jesus or the Holy spirit and the Saints of the Church and the Holy Roman church itself or any of it's clergy. Just don't do any of that and you will be ok.
Can an atheist blasphem? Yes. Even though a atheist does not adhere to the beliefs the Church he is not exonerated from the sin of blasphmy against that which the Church deems holy.
***edit to remove last statement.
This message has been edited by 1.61803, 08-06-2005 12:07 AM
This message has been edited by 1.61803, 08-06-2005 12:10 AM

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CK, posted 08-05-2005 5:32 AM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 8 of 52 (230374)
08-06-2005 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by 1.61803
08-06-2005 12:06 AM


For someone to blasphmey, they ahve to be part of that religion.
Otherwise, the entire CHristian relgion is doign blasphemy anytime they claim the God became flesh. That would be blasphemy against the Jewish faith.
And I am sure the Islamic faith has aspect sthat would be considered blashphemy against christianity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by 1.61803, posted 08-06-2005 12:06 AM 1.61803 has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 9 of 52 (230379)
08-06-2005 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
08-05-2005 5:32 AM


Blasphemy
Hi, Chas, to me, blasphemy is an internal (to that particular religion) disciplinary device. Trouble is, believers get so carried away with their delusion that they think it will work on outsiders, whether religious or secular. As to whether one should respect other`s beliefs, case of the pot calling the kettle black. I see little respect afforded non-believers here, even to the extent of quoting their scriptures like we should be impressed. True consideration is a two-way street. Afford me courtesy and I`ll reciprocate.
Edited for bold
This message has been edited by Nighttrain, 08-06-2005 02:43 AM
This message has been edited by Nighttrain, 08-06-2005 02:43 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CK, posted 08-05-2005 5:32 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by CK, posted 08-06-2005 5:11 AM Nighttrain has replied
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 08-06-2005 12:53 PM Nighttrain has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 10 of 52 (230390)
08-06-2005 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Nighttrain
08-06-2005 1:58 AM


Re: Blasphemy
you raise an interesting point - I cannot think of a word for it, but is the quoting of scripture and threating people with burning in hell if they don't toe the party line offensive or just threatening?
On a sidenote - I've been looking at my examples and I honestlythought that they would be considered "borderline" cases that would be a source of debate. I emailed them to some christian friends and they found them funny. two things have come out of this:
1) Maybe Jar has more of a point than I first admitted - I'll need to chew on that one.
2) It might be as well to have a thread on offensiveness in a more general (and I'll try to word that one a bit better than this) sense. I'm starting to think the gulf here is bigger than you would think on first examination.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Nighttrain, posted 08-06-2005 1:58 AM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Nighttrain, posted 08-06-2005 8:22 AM CK has not replied
 Message 12 by jar, posted 08-06-2005 11:35 AM CK has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 11 of 52 (230399)
08-06-2005 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by CK
08-06-2005 5:11 AM


Re: Blasphemy
I cannot think of a word for it, but is the quoting of scripture and threating people with burning in hell if they don't toe the party line offensive or just threatening?
My word for it would be arrogance. Whether it`s a knock on the door, tracts shoved in your face on the street, or people offering to `save` me, I find no excuse for bad manners. And if I reject the offer and point out why, the discussion descends into the laying of a curse (You`ll go to hell). Hardly the offering of a supposedly-enlightened person. While I applaud the actions of many religionists, the majority appear to pay lip-service to the principles I supposedly lack. Clean out your nest first, bud, I say

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by CK, posted 08-06-2005 5:11 AM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 52 (230419)
08-06-2005 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by CK
08-06-2005 5:11 AM


Re: Blasphemy
Personally, I found them somewhat funny. But there are many who would find them offensive and I do think that part of your motive is not just information but to goad certain specific members.
Now to try to deal with the question about what Blasphemy is:
I don't believe that an unbeliever can blaspheme. An unbelievers actions can be considered blasphemous by a believer, but that is in the mind and interpretation of the believer.
Except in a theocracy, blasphemy is not illegal. That means in the society we inhabit, we are dealing with social constructs and polite behaviour. It's consideration more than fact.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by CK, posted 08-06-2005 5:11 AM CK has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 52 (230421)
08-06-2005 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Nighttrain
08-06-2005 8:22 AM


Re: Blasphemy
I would most certainly agree. I too find it poor manners and counter-productive as well. Jesus did not gain followers by threatening them with eternal damnation but by example and suasion.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Nighttrain, posted 08-06-2005 8:22 AM Nighttrain has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 14 of 52 (230429)
08-06-2005 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Nighttrain
08-06-2005 1:58 AM


Re: Blasphemy
Believers are said to be offensive because they often hold to narrow and exclusive "truths", implying that non-belivers have no clues.
Non-believers are said to be offensive because THEY imply that human wisdom clearly proves beliefs to be delusional.
blasphemy \blas-fe-me\ n, pl -mies 1 : the act of expressing lack of reverence for God 2 : irreverence toward something considered sacred blasphemous \-mes\ adj
Some of us consider higher learning and scientific progress to be sacred. In that context, we all occasionally blaspheme each other.
Blasphemy is simply a lack of respect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Nighttrain, posted 08-06-2005 1:58 AM Nighttrain has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 15 of 52 (230431)
08-06-2005 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by CK
08-05-2005 6:08 PM


Re: More generally - cultural
Charles writes:
I think it very difficult for someone who is not british to understand this (and I'm sure the other brits will correct me if they feel I'm wrong on this) but for my generation, what is considered offensive is very different to what the older generation would consider offensive or what americans would find offensive. The best recent example was a show that had jesus as a bedwetter in a nappy who got a sexual thrill from shitting himself - is that offensive to people? Most people here thought that was funny - a comedy sketch that had no relationship to the actual message of the christian religion.
Some would find that placing Jesus Christ in a compromising sketch to be quite insulting. Kind of like showing the Pope as a child molestor. Others, however, consider the King of Kings fair game. After all, if He is who He is believed to be, no mere human comedy of any type would be able to taint His magnificance. In this context, Charles, your "humor" is more akin to a political cartoon poking fun at a leader.

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill
It [training] doesn't get easier; you just get faster.
-- Greg Lemond

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by CK, posted 08-05-2005 6:08 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
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