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Author | Topic: How do you know truth? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
forgiven Inactive Member |
quote: john i'm not sure i've ever really asked you, but do you believe the material universe is all that exists? do you believe that only those things suspended in space and time are "real?" also, what is your working definition (philosophical) of 'transcendental'? we don't want to get into a semantic dispute
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
quote: Well, if all images are mental images, then I guess there's such a thing as mentality--which is not in itself physical. It does not matter if I both see and imagine by the same processes. I mean it doesn't matter as regards my topic.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Or, John, perhaps you are saying that it doesn't matter if we call it physical or mental, it's the same thing? Is what you are saying?
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Really, I am trying to figure out what you are calling physical and mental. You seem to be pressing some form of mind/body dualism but I can't make sense of it. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
John, I'm trying to figure out if there is such a thing as mentality that can be distinguished from physicality. What's so weird about that? It seems very straightforward to me.
All you keep saying is that imaginary images are produced, as far as the brain goes, in the same way that actual seeing is produced. So what? The fact that we use our eyes to see physical objects seems to me to make all the difference. But I'll waive that point. The point is that the mental image that is produced is MENTAL, not physical. If there is mentality as well as physicality, then yes, the metaphysics involved would be dualistic. The importance of the idea is to figure out if there is a way a person might have free will. If it's all physical, then there's no free will as for as I can tell.
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forgiven Inactive Member |
quote: you are exactly right, for my money (and for what it's worth having my opinion concur with yours)... dunno if you're following joz and my thread on this or not
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John Inactive Member |
quote: What are your most fundamental assumptions? Your answer will turn on this.
quote: Look at the wording of your statement. "actual seeing" and "imaginary images" You've already assumed a duality.
quote: The mental image produced when 'actually seeing' is a physical image or a mental image? And the image when seeing 'imaginary images'? I suspect you want to class the two differently and place the 'actually seeing' image as a external thing. But that image is no different from your 'imaginary image' in the way the brain forms it.
quote: I am sure you are aware of the nightmarish problems philosophers have had building a connection betwixt the two, assuming this is the case?
quote: When did this topic become about free will?
quote: Only if that physical nature is fully mechanistic and that seems to not be the case. Even calling that nature 'physical' is loading the question a bit much me thinks. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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forgiven Inactive Member |
quote: really? i take it you can account for free will in a material universe? i'd be interested in learning how
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John Inactive Member |
quote: You really like to blur your terms, forgiven. The philosophical idea of materialism pretty much implies mechanism, but the idea of physical doesn't. Physical is just what we observe. I said that there is a problem with free will in a physical system only if the additional condition of mechanism is included. IF mechanism is assumed everything proceeds from start to finish in lock-step. Everything can be predicted in advance. If things do not proceed in lock-step, then there are fuzzy areas where free-will might manifest. Personally, I don't care whether it does or not, but only mechanism precludes it. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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forgiven Inactive Member |
deleted duplicate post
[This message has been edited by forgiven, 12-31-2002]
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forgiven Inactive Member |
quote: in your post right above you said free will can't exist, "Only if that physical nature is fully mechanistic and that seems to not be the case." ... will you explain why you believe that isn't the case?
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Mechanism implies predictability. The two go hand in hand. But predictability breaks down under certain conditions, most notably at atomic and sub-atomic scales. Mechanism died a horrible and lingering death starting around 1900 or so. It doesn't describe the world. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Your idea about free will being somehow possible is vague.
And why would you not care? You don't care if you are a robot or not?
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Yes, but I am commenting more on the implications of mechanism on free-will than on free-will itself. Speaking of vague ideas... the idea of free-will seems to be one of the most vague. Free-will: an agent's ability to act without the compulsions of other agents? Sentient agents only? Spiritual agents? Components of one's self? What acts? What is inside? What is out? Free-will: the absense of determinism? Only if the random is 'free-willed.' Or consider, if one reasons one's way to a conclusion does that reasoning constitute determinism?
quote: hmmm.... whatever the answer, I am still what I have always been. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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funkmasterfreaky Inactive Member |
So those of you who don't believe we have free will never bother putting any effort into decisions?
If we have no free will then why bother? ------------------Saved by an incredible Grace.
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