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Author Topic:   Charismatic Chaos
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 434 of 531 (871639)
02-07-2020 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 430 by Phat
02-07-2020 11:04 AM


Re: Christianity Was Originally A Minority Belief
Phat writes:

Constantine adopted Christianity as the official state religion of the Roman Empire. The religion thus mutated into a majority nationalistic belief. I need to read more of the history so as to solidify my point. namely that Christianity was never meant to be about the many powerful people getting a political boost from God. It was always about the few. The powerless.

Here is a quote from a book by Alan Kreider called The Patient Ferment of the Early Church

quote:
“Candidates for baptism came from differing backgrounds – Jewish and pagan, Greek and Roman. They also were of both sexes and a range of social classes. Most were poor and some were slaves, but a few were comfortably well-off. Some of the candidates were illiterate. Somehow the church’s teaching was meant to reach all of these, for all were important in the Christian church. The teachers conveyed to the candidates that, although they valued education, refined learning was not the point; the instruction was not designed to produce sophisticated thought but “character” and “virtuous living”. “

The next sentence from the book succinctly tells us how Christianity was lived and how it was spread in its first 3 centuries.
quote:
“The church’s growth was the product, not of the Christians’ persuasive powers, but of their convincing life style.

The early Christians were highly distinctive in contrast to their violent, self-serving culture, for the way that they loved each other, the way that loved their neighbours and even their enemies. For their beliefs they more often than not endured poverty, isolation and sometimes torture and death.

Unfortunately that all changed when Constantine, issued the “Edict of Milan”. This proclamation legalized Christianity and allowed for freedom of worship throughout the empire.

This was actually a good thing for the existing Christians but it in my view was a terrible thing for Christianity in general. Christians were no longer being persecuted as they had been but it was disastrous for what it did to how Christianity was lived and understood.

Just for one thing, Constantine was baptized on his death and not earlier as he felt that being baptized would make calls that he wouldn’t want to deal with in the way he ruled the empire.

He still felt free to maintain power by use of force, could pass death sentences and rule in the traditional manner of Roman emperors.
As I see it, all of this resulted in at least 4 specific ways that Christianity drew away from the teachings of Jesus.

1/It moved the church away from the non-aggression stance taken by Jesus and it has impacted the thinking of the church right through the middle ages and is still an influence today.

2/Another change that came as a result of this was that, whereas the early Christian Church had been largely egalitarian, even though it had Bishops, it now to a large degree gave undue influence to political leaders, and in this case Roman political leaders. The gulf between what was secular and what was Christian had to a large degree been crossed.

3/ It also moved the centre of a large segment of Christianity away from Jerusalem and to Rome which gave a strong start to separating Christianity and Jesus from their Jewish roots. Up to this time Christianity had been rooted in the Jewishness of Jesus and the Jewish understanding of life, death and message of Jesus. This allowed for a Latin input into Christian doctrine but to a much greater extent Christianity took on board a great deal of Greek philosophy and particularly the philosophy of Plato.

4/ In the book “The Patient Ferment” as indicated by the title one of the major hall marks of the first three centuries of Christianity was “patience”. These early Christians were not focused on growing the church but to patiently let it grow driven the example of their life style of sexual fidelity, love and courage.

Hopefully we can get back to that.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by Phat, posted 02-07-2020 11:04 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 435 by ringo, posted 02-07-2020 12:24 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 437 of 531 (871643)
02-07-2020 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 435 by ringo
02-07-2020 12:24 PM


Re: Christianity Was Originally A Minority Belief
ringo writes:

Is there any evidence of that?


My source is the book by Kreider. Here are his credentials from wiki.
quote:
Kreider was educated at Goshen College, Indiana (BA 1962), Princeton University (1962–63), Heidelberg University (1963–64), Harvard University (AM 1965) (PhD 1971), and the University of London (1966–68). He has been the recipient of a Danforth Fellowship (1962–68), a Harvard Travelling Fellowship (1966–67), and an American Council of Learned Societies Fellowship (1972–74). In 1995 he was accorded the status of Master of Arts in the University of Oxford and his name was added to the Register of Congregation.[1]

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 435 by ringo, posted 02-07-2020 12:24 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 458 of 531 (871711)
02-10-2020 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 457 by jar
02-09-2020 8:40 PM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
jar writes:

There is evidence of humans doing stuff but no evidence of God doing stuff.

It really is that simple. We are charged to be stewards of the Earth and all its inhabitants.


Out of curiosity jar are you a deist or a theist?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by jar, posted 02-09-2020 8:40 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 459 by jar, posted 02-10-2020 7:39 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 462 of 531 (871716)
02-10-2020 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 459 by jar
02-10-2020 7:39 AM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
You said this.
jar writes:

There is evidence of humans doing stuff but no evidence of God doing stuff.

It really is that simple. We are charged to be stewards of the Earth and all its inhabitants.

So I asked if you were a deist or a theist, and you simply said:

jar writes:

I'm an an Episcopalian.


I'm an Anglican and we both know that there is a wide variety of beliefs within our denomination. It seems to me that with your first statement it sounds as if you feel that God has simply left us to run the show and that there is now no connection between God and this world. Do you believe that there is a Holy Spirit as in the still small voice of God? Just curious.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by jar, posted 02-10-2020 7:39 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 463 by jar, posted 02-10-2020 10:40 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 465 of 531 (871719)
02-10-2020 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 463 by jar
02-10-2020 10:40 AM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
jar writes:

Again, I see absolutely no way to take that beyond some personal belief not founded on any evidence or to determine who that small voice might be other than testing the content against logic, reason and reality.

OK, but I'm asking what it is that you believe.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by jar, posted 02-10-2020 10:40 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 466 by jar, posted 02-10-2020 11:48 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 467 of 531 (871721)
02-10-2020 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by jar
02-10-2020 11:48 AM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
jar writes:

And, in case you didn't notice, I have not answered. What I believe is irrelevant to anyone but me.

Yes I did notice. That is the point. You spend considerable time attacking what other people believe without having the courage to talk about what you believe.

People like Phat, Faith and even the atheists on this forum do have the courage to make themselves vulnerable by putting their beliefs out there. You attack their beliefs, often in very patronizing and insulting language, while hiding in the weeds with your own beliefs whatever they are.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by jar, posted 02-10-2020 11:48 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 468 by jar, posted 02-10-2020 12:30 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 469 of 531 (871724)
02-10-2020 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 468 by jar
02-10-2020 12:30 PM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
jar writes:

Understand, I try very hard to never be unintentionally rude.

jar writes:

And that was simply a sophomoric stupid thing for you to say. - Learn to read and comprehend. I believe you can do that.

Hmmmm


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by jar, posted 02-10-2020 12:30 PM jar has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 472 of 531 (871734)
02-10-2020 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 463 by jar
02-10-2020 10:40 AM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
OK You say that you are clear about what you believe. I asked a simple question about your belief. Not what you know.
GDR writes:

It seems to me that with your first statement it sounds as if you feel that God has simply left us to run the show and that there is now no connection between God and this world.---Do you believe that there is a Holy Spirit as in the still small voice of God?

You replied:

jar writes:

Again, I see absolutely no way to take that beyond some personal belief not founded on any evidence or to determine who that small voice might be other than testing the content against logic, reason and reality. In that case the actual source of the voice is irrelevant.

We aren't dealing with scientific knowledge. We are simply talking about what you believe or have faith in. Your response is hardly clear.

Is God deistic in that He no longer has any influence in our world of space and time, or are you theistic in your beliefs, believing that God does still interact in this world?


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by jar, posted 02-10-2020 10:40 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by jar, posted 02-10-2020 8:45 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 474 of 531 (871736)
02-10-2020 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 473 by jar
02-10-2020 8:45 PM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
It isn't that hard. As a Christian I believe that God has not initiated life here and then left us on our own. I do believe that God does interact with our consciousness with His still small voice gently nudging us to do the right thing. We have the freedom to ignore that voice to whatever degree we want but that it is still there. Do I know this is true? Absolutely not. It is what I believe.

Again I am asking what it is you believe. I am not asking what it is you know.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by jar, posted 02-10-2020 8:45 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 475 by jar, posted 02-10-2020 9:38 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 476 of 531 (871740)
02-11-2020 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 475 by jar
02-10-2020 9:38 PM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
jar writes:

And again, I am telling you that it is simply irrelevant and hardly worth any more time or effort. There is absolutely no way to know about any such source and so regardless of whether or not you believe that the small quiet voice is God it is up to you to test the content against logic, reason and reality. Even the direct voice of God is not beyond questioning.

So you're saying then that your agnostic.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by jar, posted 02-10-2020 9:38 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 477 by jar, posted 02-11-2020 8:11 AM GDR has responded
 Message 478 by Phat, posted 02-11-2020 9:07 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 482 of 531 (871754)
02-11-2020 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 477 by jar
02-11-2020 8:11 AM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
jar writes:

Once again you simply show your inability to read or to retain what you read longer than 15 seconds.

I am a believer, an Episcopalian and I am familiar with the "I believes".

But all that is irrelevant. Regardless of who we believe the source might be we are charged to test the content against logic, reason and reality.

Remember all the times I have discussed Genesis 18 here?


The I believes from the creed:
I believe in the resurrection of the body.
You said somewhere along the line that you don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus

I believe in the Holy Ghost
You say you don't believe that.

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck it is probably...you know the rest.

AS Phat pointed out you fit the definition of an agnostic but you call yourself an Episcopalian.

Let's just settle on an agnostic Episcopalian.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by jar, posted 02-11-2020 8:11 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by jar, posted 02-11-2020 1:29 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 485 of 531 (871764)
02-12-2020 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 483 by jar
02-11-2020 1:29 PM


Re: feel all better now?
jar writes:

No, I say it doesn't matter if it happened or not.

That wasn't the point. And the question you won't answer is do you believe it happened or not.

jar writes:

No, I say that there is no evidence of such a thing and no way to determine if there is such a thing.

and still you are afraid to commit to any belief.

jar writes:

Really GDR, learn to read; it's not all that hard.

I can read your obfuscation and evasion quite clearly.

jar writes:

Honestly, I do not just call myself an Episcopalian but I am also registered as an Episcopalian and even have my name on the wall of an Episcopal chapel.

No problem there, you just can't commit to their beliefs.

jar writes:

You can settle on whatever fool thing makes you feel good but it has no basis in truth or reality.

Well you can't settle on anything at all, and yet you treat those that are not afraid to stand up for their beliefs with condescending and arrogant comments.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by jar, posted 02-11-2020 1:29 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 486 by jar, posted 02-12-2020 7:02 AM GDR has responded
 Message 491 by ringo, posted 02-12-2020 2:14 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 487 of 531 (871778)
02-12-2020 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 486 by jar
02-12-2020 7:02 AM


Re: feel all better now?
jar writes:

Have I told you that I am an Episcopalian?

I don't question that, but you can't even acknowledge that you believe basic Episcopalian doctrine. You're an Episcopalian by membership but by your statements you're agnostic by belief.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 486 by jar, posted 02-12-2020 7:02 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 488 by jar, posted 02-12-2020 12:14 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 490 by Phat, posted 02-12-2020 2:12 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
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