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Author Topic:   Charismatic Chaos
jar
Member
Posts: 32031
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


(3)
Message 211 of 297 (649621)
01-24-2012 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Thugpreacha
01-24-2012 1:45 PM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
Okay, but first take away his drivers license.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-24-2012 1:45 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-21-2012 8:11 AM jar has responded
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 Message 217 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-22-2019 4:12 PM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13571
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 212 of 297 (656696)
03-21-2012 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by jar
01-24-2012 4:06 PM


Richard Roberts In Action

quote:
Edmonton Healing Service:

Richard Roberts: Now, you can tell you had a healing tonight, put your hand up? Look at the hands. Alright, let me get real; let me get real specific with you. Who is it, you had quite a severe back problem, and now all that pain is gone? Wave your hand at me. Where are you? Go ahead, put your hand up high so I can tell. Sir, is it you? Is the pain gone in your back, completely? Pretty severe? Come down here a minute. Brother Roy, bring him up on the platform. Who is it; your shoulder was so bad you could not lift it up, now you have complete freedom? In the red, come down here a minute. Brother Dave, bring her up on the platform. Who is it; you had such pain in your feet and legs? I mean really bad. Was it you? Come on down. Gonna have just a few, because there are hundreds of you. Just make a line right over here brother.

Who is it now, suddenly you’re seeing clearly? The cataracts just dissolved. Is it you? Come down here a minute. Who else, you can tell? Just gonna have a few give a testimony, and then I’m gonna lay hands on you. Who’s hearing now? All of a sudden you just got a burst of hearing, it just shot in your ear? Where are you? Wave your hand at me. Your hearing is so clear now. Where is that person? Wave your hand at me. Are you upstairs? Where are you? Your hearing has come back. Where are you? Wave your hand at me. The person, you came with intense pain tonight. Where are you and the pain is gone? Wave your hand at me. The pain is completely gone; wave your hand at me. Come down here a minute mam. Mam, are you out of that wheelchair? She was in a wheelchair. Bring me that wheelchair. Set that wheelchair up here.


Do cataracts ever simply dissolve?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by jar, posted 01-24-2012 4:06 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by jar, posted 03-21-2012 9:52 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32031
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 213 of 297 (656701)
03-21-2012 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Thugpreacha
03-21-2012 8:11 AM


Re: Richard Roberts In Action
When they were never there in the first place, sure.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-21-2012 8:11 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by dwise1, posted 03-21-2012 8:42 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3953
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 214 of 297 (656756)
03-21-2012 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by jar
03-21-2012 9:52 AM


Re: Richard Roberts In Action
A couple decades ago there was an exposé book, Salvation for Sale, written by a former staff member of Pat Robertson's TV network; the author had been a major force in bringing the network's programming up closer to commercial standards. He witnessed Pat Robertson do a healing. An old man with ashen complexion was wheeled up in his wheelchair and Robertson prayed over him. And as the author watched, the man's complexion turned rosy and his spirits visibly lifted; the man had been healed. Then a short time later, the author decided to do a follow-up (good for the TV show) and discovered that the man had died a few days after the "healing."

Placebo effect in action? How often do faith healers do any follow-up checks to see whether the fix had taken?

True story: I had heard of the book and went into the neighborhood Crown Bookstore (which should date this story) and asked for it:
"Do you have Salvation for Sale?"
"No, but there's a church right down the street from here."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by jar, posted 03-21-2012 9:52 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 493 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 215 of 297 (656757)
03-21-2012 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by dwise1
03-21-2012 8:42 PM


Another one; Peter Popoff
From Wiki:

Exposed as a fraud by James Randi

During his appearances at church conventions in the 1970s, Popoff routinely and accurately stated the home addresses and specific illnesses of his audience members, a feat many believed was due to divine revelation and "God given ability".[5] In 1986 when members of CSICOP reported that Popoff was using a radio to receive messages, Popoff denied it and said the messages came from God.[6] At the time of his popularity, skeptic groups across the United States printed and handed out pamphlets explaining how Popoff's feats could be done.[2] Popoff would tell his audience that the pamphlets were "tools of the devil".[2]

Popoff's earlier claims were debunked in 1986 when noted skeptic James Randi and his assistant Steve Shaw researched Popoff by attending revival meetings across the country for months. Randi asked investigator and crime scene analyst Alexander Jason [1] for technical assistance and he was able to use a high-tech (at the time) computerized scanner during a Popoff appearance in San Francisco. Jason identified and intercepted the radio transmissions[7] that were being sent by Peter's wife Elizabeth Popoff who was backstage reading information which she and her aides (Reeford Sherrill) had gathered from earlier conversations with members of the audience. Popoff would listen to these promptings with an in-ear receiver and repeat what he heard to the crowd.[8]

Randi then went on to plant imposters in the audience, including a man dressed as a woman pretending to have uterine cancer, of which "she" was "cured".[9] Jason produced video segments showing several Popoff "healings" which included the previously secret audio. After these were shown on The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson, Popoff's popularity and viewing audiences declined sharply.[2] In September 1987, sixteen months after the Carson airing, Popoff declared bankruptcy, with more than 790 creditors having claims against him.[10]

As Randi explained in The Faith Healers, he originally took his research to the United States Attorney's office, but never heard back from them.[2] This led Johnny Carson to invite Randi on the show to explain how Popoff operated. Popoff at first denied that he used the tactics Randi claimed, even asserting "NBC hired an actress to impersonate Mrs. Popoff on a 'doctored' videotape."[2] However, as the media pressed with more questions, "on day three Reverend Popoff admitted the existence of the radio device, claiming, that 'almost everybody' knew about the 'communicator.' And, he added, 'My wife occasionally gives me the name of a person who needs special prayers'."[2]

Popoff's shows also featured audience members who were brought on stage in wheelchairs and then rose dramatically to walk without support. These were some of Popoff's most incredible "healings", but what believing audience members and television viewers did not know was that wheelchairs were used by Popoff to seat people who were already able to walk.[11]

Popoff wrote several paperback books in the early 1980s that were published by Faith Messenger Publications. He was also known for collecting donations to be sent to the Soviet Union, which earned him a profit.[2]

In 1991, the NOVA episode "Secrets of the Psychics" aired footage of Popoff with his wife's radio transmission dubbed in. Since then, that episode was released on video to teach critical thinking.[12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Popoff


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13571
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 216 of 297 (869063)
12-22-2019 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by jar
01-24-2012 4:06 PM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
Double Post

Edited by Thugpreacha, : double post error


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by jar, posted 01-24-2012 4:06 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13571
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 217 of 297 (869064)
12-22-2019 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by jar
01-24-2012 4:06 PM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
ringo, in another thread writes:

Don't you see how silly the idea of being "saved" is?
First, you can only be saved from something. That something is damnation - by God. So God is supposedly saving you from Himself. (That should be fairly easy, even for the weakling god that you posit - all he has to do is nothing.)

Second, you can not be saved from something before it happens. A firefighter doesn't rescue you before the fire. You can hope you'll be rescued. You can be pretty sure that you'll be rescued. But you can not say that you have been rescued when what you need to be rescued from hasn't happened yet. (And if the firefighter is the one who started the fire, I wouldn't trust his promise to save me from it.)

Of course, you never have bought into the idea that God allowed Satan to exist only to validate the concept of free will.
Stile writes:

Pretty much anything can be corrupted in some way. Just because religion has been grossly corrupted in vast quantities doesn't mean that the good parts aren't still good.


Phage writes:

Contentedness need not be contingent on a fantasy.

Stile writes:

As a general statement, you are correct. For each and every human on an individual level, you are wrong. There are some people who do require a fantasy to be content.

Phage0070 writes:

People who rely on religion to solve their problems are setting themselves up for disappointment, and those who solve their own problems are wasting their efforts with religious practices.

Stile writes:

This depends entirely on which problems are being solved, and what efforts are being spent. Throwing out religion or irrational hopefulness entirely is just a bit too far, though.

I agree that a world with no religion would be better than the world we have right now. However, a world that can identify and make use of the good parts of religion is better than a world with no religion at all.

Phage writes:

In essence you are arguing that religion is a recreational pastime, which would be fine except that it HURTS PEOPLE.

Stile writes:

Funny, I find that "in essence" he is saying that religion can (even should?) be a recreational pastime. And if used as such then it does not hurt people. It's when religion hurts people that it should be berated, not when it's helping people.


I agree. Looking back at Spong through my beliefs today, I see that he was more liberal and new age than I like. That he was a retired Episcopal Bishop links him up in my mind to our very own jar, who has steadfastly defended the basic premise that we should throw God away and be the doer ourselves. In such a case, prayer would only serve as an inner meditation reminding ourselves of what we can, should, and will do for others on a daily basis.

Phage writes:

People die every day because religion prevents them access to proper medical care. People (mostly women and minorities) are prevented education and other rights that would increase their utility to society, because of religion.

Stile writes:

All true. And it all occurs when religion is used as much more than "a recreational pastime."

I had my eye operation for a vitrectomy on November 12th. I found myself unable to see focus out of said eye which has continued to this very day. The Doctor will reevaluate on January 7th, at which time I may need another operation. Spong's words and jars words ring in my head because unlike Faith, I have a belief that God uses other points of view and beliefs in order to challenge and strengthen my own. Yes, I have prayed...and I have gained empathy for disabled and blind people much more than I had. The message of helping others as the essence of Christianity might just be all that there is to it, but I won't throw away my belief in a God of compassion Who interacts with humanity. I have seen too much to ever throw that away. That being said, I will again admit that the methods I want and hope for God to intervene with and use suggest my irrational belief in favoritism. It hurts to say, but why should I be blessed any more than the alcoholic homeless couple whom we had to make leave the store because they were stealing?? Thus, jars basic argument that Biblical Christianity promotes an unrealistic fantasy of a God they make up is true, to some degree.

jar writes:

...far more abandon Christianity and adopt Islam after critically evaluating Christianity.

It is largely because people are forced to convert to Islam in some circumstances. There is no forcing done in Christianity apart from peer pressure.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by jar, posted 01-24-2012 4:06 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by jar, posted 12-22-2019 4:19 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 231 by ringo, posted 12-23-2019 11:01 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32031
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 218 of 297 (869065)
12-22-2019 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Thugpreacha
12-22-2019 4:12 PM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
Phat writes:

jar writes:

...far more abandon Christianity and adopt Islam after critically evaluating Christianity.

It is largely because people are forced to convert to Islam in some circumstances. There is no forcing done in Christianity apart from peer pressure.

Evidence Phat, evidence. Are people forced to become Muslims in China, India, the US, Europe, South East Asia, Canada?

What is true is that the major reason for a child to become a Muslim is exactly the same reason that a child becomes a Christian and that is getting born into a Christian family.

Edited by jar, : No reason given.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-22-2019 4:12 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-22-2019 4:50 PM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13571
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 219 of 297 (869066)
12-22-2019 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by jar
12-22-2019 4:19 PM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
We are talking about conversions.
About a quarter of adults who were raised Muslim (23%) no longer identify as members of the faith, roughly on par with the share of Americans who were raised Christian and no longer identify with Christianity (22%), according to a new analysis of the 2014 Religious Landscape Study.

Council of Foreign Relations writes:

While conversions to Islam are commonplace and widely reported, conversions out of Islam are generally kept more hush-hush. In the West, experts estimate thousands of Muslims switch to Christianity every year but keep their conversions secret for fear of retribution. “Converts from Islam, especially those who become involved in Christian ministries, often use assumed names, or only their first names, in order to protect themselves and their families,” writes Daveed Gartenstein-Ross, a Washington-based terrorism analyst in Commentary.

Lots of the conversions to Christianity are kept quiet, whereas many of the conversions to Islam are done deliberately and openly. (see prisoners converting to islam)


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by jar, posted 12-22-2019 4:19 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by jar, posted 12-22-2019 4:55 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 221 by Tangle, posted 12-22-2019 5:39 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32031
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 220 of 297 (869067)
12-22-2019 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Thugpreacha
12-22-2019 4:50 PM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
If the conversion is kept quiet then we will not have any data to support such claims and so any such claims should simply be disregarded.

But it is interesting that as both Christians and Muslims mature a significant percentage throw the religion away.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-22-2019 4:50 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7296
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 221 of 297 (869068)
12-22-2019 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Thugpreacha
12-22-2019 4:50 PM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
Why are there any conversions at all? Does one god stop speaking and another start?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-22-2019 4:50 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Faith, posted 12-22-2019 6:10 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34460
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 222 of 297 (869069)
12-22-2019 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Tangle
12-22-2019 5:39 PM


True Conversion
Why are there any conversions at all?

So I'll add my view of this to the mix.

Conversion in Christianity is a supernatural thing, not just a choice one makes. The word "conversion" itself implies this, a real change in us. That's what being "born again" or regenerated means.

We need to be converted, actually changed in our nature, in order to be suited to the environment of heaven and God's presence, because of the Fall where we lost our spiritual faculty and our spiritual knowledge and our spiritual connection to God. We became mere "flesh" as a result.

The spirit we had originally must be regenerated in us. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption," it says in 1 Cor 15:52. Being sinners from the Fall we inherit corruption through our flesh, and that has to be changed in order to inherit the perfections of the Kingdom of God.

What we get at conversion is called an "earnest" or pledge of the Holy Spirit who will not be given in full until the Rapture, at which time "we shall be changed, in the twinking of an eye, at the last trump..." (1 Cor 15:52).

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Tangle, posted 12-22-2019 5:39 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by jar, posted 12-22-2019 6:35 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 224 by Tangle, posted 12-23-2019 1:10 AM Faith has responded
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jar
Member
Posts: 32031
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 223 of 297 (869072)
12-22-2019 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Faith
12-22-2019 6:10 PM


Re: True Conversion
Yet the evidence shows that the majority of conversions are to throw religions away. When about one out of four Christians or Muslims simply throw their belief away it might be worthwhile for the religion to look at why it is failing.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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 Message 222 by Faith, posted 12-22-2019 6:10 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 7296
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 224 of 297 (869075)
12-23-2019 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Faith
12-22-2019 6:10 PM


Re: True Conversion
Given all that made up nonsense, how can a conversion away from Christianity to another religion be possible? Which god is speaking the loudest?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Faith, posted 12-22-2019 6:10 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Faith, posted 12-23-2019 2:07 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34460
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 225 of 297 (869077)
12-23-2019 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by Tangle
12-23-2019 1:10 AM


Re: True Conversion
It's amazing how such a complete system of thought can be accused of being made up, but you guys have to find something wrong with it.

There is no conversion to any other religion, no actual change as there is in Christianity. People choose other religions but they don't convert in the sense I'm describing. There's only one true God, the God of the Bible. Take it or leave it, Tangle, I'm telling you what I know but you don't have to accept it. You can always make up whatever you want, assume I'm just partisan etc.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Tangle, posted 12-23-2019 1:10 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Tangle, posted 12-23-2019 2:22 AM Faith has responded

  
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