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Author Topic:   Charismatic Chaos
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7296
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 241 of 297 (869123)
12-23-2019 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Thugpreacha
12-23-2019 12:14 PM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
Phat writes:

Why is the concept of angels so glaringly illogical?

Do you really need to ask that? Why would god need angels? More stupidly, why create a bad one?

And why is the idea that one of them would decide to drink his own Kool-Aid rather than the corporate version so preposterous?

This is so childish ... why would an angel in heaven - the most perfect and happiest place imaginable - want to change anything? Don't you think it possible that this is just all anthropomorphised? Can't you see that it's just a folk myth? There's nothing god-like about any of this stuff. It's all totally human.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-23-2019 12:14 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by frako, posted 12-23-2019 8:59 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 245 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-24-2019 4:26 AM Tangle has responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2851
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 242 of 297 (869130)
12-23-2019 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Tangle
12-23-2019 1:23 PM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
Do you really need to ask that? Why would god need angels? More stupidly, why create a bad one?

Well according to the Winchester gospels, god needed help to imprison his sister the darkness. Lucifer then became corrupt because of the mark that held the darkness, the same mark that was then given to Cain.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Tangle, posted 12-23-2019 1:23 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Tangle, posted 12-24-2019 2:26 AM frako has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7296
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


(3)
Message 243 of 297 (869133)
12-24-2019 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by frako
12-23-2019 8:59 PM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
Ah, don't tell me … he made a ring to bind the darkness but lost it and it was found by a hobbit with big hairy toes …

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by frako, posted 12-23-2019 8:59 PM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by frako, posted 12-24-2019 3:13 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2851
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 244 of 297 (869134)
12-24-2019 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Tangle
12-24-2019 2:26 AM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
Thats the Tolkiens gospels, im talking about the Winchester gospels, the new new testament.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Tangle, posted 12-24-2019 2:26 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13571
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 245 of 297 (869139)
12-24-2019 4:26 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Tangle
12-23-2019 1:23 PM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
tangle writes:

Don't you think it possible that this is just all anthropomorphized? Can't you see that it's just a folk myth? There's nothing god-like about any of this stuff. It's all totally human.

Every thought of our imagination is human. Take Star Trek. It inspired a generation of scientists, even though it was a fantasy. If anyone can imagine a Klingon they can surely imagine a Spirit Being who sends an anthropomorphized rep to the planet. You need to stop convincing yourself that its simply mythological. Much better than thinking we have just evolved as animals out for a long generational trek to do our best at becoming of higher intelligence by rejecting anything our little science kits cant prove. This universe and its possibilities are so much greater than our capacity to conceive of. And dont forget...without imagination, half of the inventions would never have yet become reality.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Tangle, posted 12-23-2019 1:23 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Tangle, posted 12-24-2019 4:45 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 249 by jar, posted 12-24-2019 6:52 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 254 by ringo, posted 12-24-2019 10:55 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7296
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 246 of 297 (869140)
12-24-2019 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Thugpreacha
12-24-2019 4:26 AM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
Phat writes:

If anyone can imagine a Klingon they can surely imagine a Spirit Being who sends an anthropomorphized rep to the planet.

Yes Phat, they can and did imagine a Spirit Being, and talking snakes, angels and devils, war in heavens etc etc etc.

That's the point, it's all obviously human imagination, mystical thinking and story telling. There's nothing remotely god-like about any of it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-24-2019 4:26 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Faith, posted 12-24-2019 4:49 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34460
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 247 of 297 (869141)
12-24-2019 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Tangle
12-24-2019 4:45 AM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
That's perfectly silly. The Bible does not read like fiction, it reads like history. As C.S. Lewis, who taught literature at Oxford I believe, pointed out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Tangle, posted 12-24-2019 4:45 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Tangle, posted 12-24-2019 6:04 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 253 by frako, posted 12-24-2019 10:44 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 256 by Theodoric, posted 12-25-2019 12:20 AM Faith has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7296
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 248 of 297 (869142)
12-24-2019 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Faith
12-24-2019 4:49 AM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
It reads exactly like fiction. Exactly. There's nothing in the bible that *couldn't* have been written by people alive at the time it was written.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Faith, posted 12-24-2019 4:49 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32031
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 249 of 297 (869143)
12-24-2019 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Thugpreacha
12-24-2019 4:26 AM


Phat, you really don't read what you write!
Phat writes:

If anyone can imagine a Klingon they can surely imagine a Spirit Being who sends an anthropomorphized rep to the planet.

The only people to question that statement are the folk like you Phat that insist all those Spirit Beings were more than just the products of human imagination.

Phat writes:

Much better than thinking we have just evolved as animals out for a long generational trek to do our best at becoming of higher intelligence by rejecting anything our little science kits cant prove.

Why?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-24-2019 4:26 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-24-2019 8:58 AM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13571
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 250 of 297 (869144)
12-24-2019 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by jar
12-24-2019 6:52 AM


Re: Phat, you really don't read what you write!
phat writes:

Much better than thinking we have just evolved as animals out for a long generational trek to do our best at becoming of higher intelligence by rejecting anything our little science kits cant prove.

jar writes:

Why?

Call it intuition. I realize that your argument is that the evidence shows this to be the likely case.

Proverbs 14:12 writes:

12 There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death.

This scenario...namely that humans are powerless without Gods communion, is to you the snake oil of the apologists. Essentially, you look at the lesson as God showing us what we can do by living as Jesus lived, yet providing no help. Perhaps you have intuitively believed as this scrip would suggest:
Genesis 4:7 writes:

ESV-If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it.”

Implying that we have the ability (as humans) to resist sin.(Our carnal nature of pride, greed, and lust)

Star Trek, a fantasy that inspired a generation of future scientists, was a story where humans tried to do their best and overcame many seemingly insurmountable challenges without the help of any God. I do not have an optimistic outlook on the future of humanity without God. The bottom line is that we collectively need further lessons. Seeing us as simply evolving animals with no help from God is depressing. I fear we will fail. Perhaps this shows one of my own human flaws---that I have always relied on help my entire life to get out of the worst jams---many of which I myself created. Perhaps I would have been better off if nobody ever helped me.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 12-24-2019 6:52 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Tangle, posted 12-24-2019 10:03 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 252 by jar, posted 12-24-2019 10:30 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 255 by ringo, posted 12-24-2019 11:03 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7296
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 251 of 297 (869147)
12-24-2019 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by Thugpreacha
12-24-2019 8:58 AM


Re: Phat, you really don't read what you write!
Phat writes:

Star Trek, a fantasy that inspired a generation of future scientists, was a story where humans tried to do their best and overcame many seemingly insurmountable challenges without the help of any God. I do not have an optimistic outlook on the future of humanity without God.

Says who? You? Seemed pretty optimistic to me. For a start there *was* a future, unlike your lots persistent claim that the end of the world is nigh and daily doom laden prophesies. They always put things right and win the day.

bottom line is that we collectively need further lessons.

Says who? You?

Seeing us as simply evolving animals with no help from God is depressing.

To you.

I fear we will fail. Perhaps this shows one of my own human flaws---that I have always relied on help my entire life to get out of the worst jams---many of which I myself created. Perhaps I would have been better off if nobody ever helped me.

More doom and whinging. For god's sake Phat get a grip.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-24-2019 8:58 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32031
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 252 of 297 (869148)
12-24-2019 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by Thugpreacha
12-24-2019 8:58 AM


Re: Phat, you really don't read what you write!
Again you simply fall back on word salad Phat and avoid responding to what others actually say.

Phat writes:

jar writes:

Why?

Call it intuition. I realize that your argument is that the evidence shows this to be the likely case.

The why was my question to your posts quoted below.

Phat writes:

Much better than thinking we have just evolved as animals out for a long generational trek to do our best at becoming of higher intelligence by rejecting anything our little science kits cant prove.

Is it intuition really Phat or simply a personal wish?

Phat writes:

Seeing us as simply evolving animals with no help from God is depressing. I fear we will fail.

But stop and look at reality.

We have the God given ability to recognize right from wrong. Your own quote from Genesis says that we have the God given ability to do right rather than wrong.

Remember the guy named Paul.

We are charged to fight the GOOD fight. Win or lose, fight the GOOD fight.

We are charged to Run the race. Win or lose, run the race.

We have the knowledge today to at least determine factually, based on real evidence, what the problems are today.

We have the power through the vote to tell our representatives at all levels that they must address those problems.

At the local level we need to vote for those representatives that address the local issues of hunger and safety and shelter and basic necessities. If they cannot present concrete plans to address those issues then don't vote for them. If they get elected but do not fulfill their commitments, recall them and throw them away.

At the State level address the regional issues. Make the representatives present their program to encourage switching to Green Energy rather than Fossil Fuels. Make them address zoning laws that will encourage folk to move away from areas susceptible to predictable disasters or to build in a fashion to mitigate losses from fire, flood, mud, rock or snow slide, rising sea levels or beach erosion. Set a tax incentive plan to encourage the move from fossil energy systems to renewable energy systems.

At the National level do the same. Demand representatives that will work to bring the US health care system up to at least the international average. Demand Federal action to address climate change, the wealth gap, a progressive taxation system, long term stability of Social Security and Health Care and again, encourage the transition from fossil fuels to renewable energy.

Phat, we can see what needs to be done and where it needs to be done. Jesus commanded us to address those very issues and as Christians we are charged to at least try to fight the Good fight, Run the race.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-24-2019 8:58 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2851
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 253 of 297 (869149)
12-24-2019 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Faith
12-24-2019 4:49 AM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
Yea, who ever could think surviving in whales, breeding spotted goats by having them mate in front of a bush or curing your house of leprosy by sprinkling it with pigeon blood could be fiction, its pure historic and scientific fact.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Faith, posted 12-24-2019 4:49 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17835
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 254 of 297 (869151)
12-24-2019 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Thugpreacha
12-24-2019 4:26 AM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
Phat writes:

Every thought of our imagination is human....You need to stop convincing yourself that its simply mythological.


You contradict yourself.

Phat writes:

This universe and its possibilities are so much greater than our capacity to conceive of.


Then why is your concept of it better than a non-believer's?

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-24-2019 4:26 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17835
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 255 of 297 (869152)
12-24-2019 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by Thugpreacha
12-24-2019 8:58 AM


Re: Phat, you really don't read what you write!
Phat writes:

The bottom line is that we collectively need further lessons.


You like to throw in that word "collectively". I wonder why, since you're the one who believes that God communes with you individually.

Phat writes:

Perhaps this shows one of my own human flaws---that I have always relied on help my entire life to get out of the worst jams---many of which I myself created.


The lesson that you should be taking from that is that there is help. We do do things collectively, i.e. not relying on God.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-24-2019 8:58 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
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