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Author Topic:   Charismatic Chaos
ringo
Member
Posts: 17835
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 286 of 297 (869384)
12-29-2019 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Thugpreacha
12-29-2019 2:44 PM


Re: Getting Around To Answering Ringos Questions
Phat writes:

The problem here is that God is God before humans even were.


But we have no reason to think that's true.

Phat writes:

Thus, we cannot limit God as we do our other unevidenced creations.


A "thus" that comes from an empty statement is equally empty.

As I have pointed out, without evidence to distinguish one made-up idea from another, there is no way to distinguish one made-up idea from another.


"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-29-2019 2:44 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-29-2019 3:24 PM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32031
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 287 of 297 (869385)
12-29-2019 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Thugpreacha
12-29-2019 2:44 PM


The best questions are generally threatening
Phat writes:

God is good. Not "complete" as jar suggests. That's simply too threatening. Which is another clue.

The fact that your only rebuttal is that it's simply too threatening should be a clue to YOU that the reason you reject the concept is that it scares you, not that it is unreasonable or impossible or not supported by logic and evidence and so you create the God in YOUR image.

Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-29-2019 2:44 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-29-2019 3:32 PM jar has responded
 Message 292 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-21-2020 4:43 PM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13571
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 288 of 297 (869387)
12-29-2019 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by ringo
12-29-2019 2:51 PM


Re: Getting Around To Answering Ringos Questions
ringo writes:

But we have no reason to think that's true.

What reasons do we have to think its false? I can think of a few you might use:
1) There is no evidence God does anything.
Upon which I would say to quit using evidence as the only standard. Quite clearly the dogma basically says that a minority of people will understand and a majority either won't get it or will reject it.
2)How would we know which God turned out to be real, if any?

Obviously the One who would want relationship with humanity---to become reconnected. Our major mistake as a species was disconnecting.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by ringo, posted 12-29-2019 2:51 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by ringo, posted 12-29-2019 3:39 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13571
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 289 of 297 (869388)
12-29-2019 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by jar
12-29-2019 3:01 PM


Re: The best questions are generally threatening
jar writes:

...the reason you reject the concept is that it scares you, not that it is unreasonable or impossible or not supported by logic and evidence

So you reject the "dogma" that God is good all the time and all the time God is good? It seems the GOD you imagine is so complex that we would be lucky to even get an audience.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by jar, posted 12-29-2019 3:01 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by jar, posted 12-29-2019 4:46 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17835
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 290 of 297 (869389)
12-29-2019 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Thugpreacha
12-29-2019 3:24 PM


Re: Getting Around To Answering Ringos Questions
Phat writes:

What reasons do we have to think its false?


False is the default. Innocent until proven guilty, no unicorns without evidence, etc. Otherwise we'd be up to our ears in possibilities with no way to thin the herd.

Phat writes:

Upon which I would say to quit using evidence as the only standard.


Quit saying that. It's stupid. If there was any other standard we'd be using it.

Phat writes:

How would we know which God turned out to be real, if any?


That's my question to you. Every argument you use against Zeus can be used against your God.

Phat writes:

Obviously the One who would want relationship with humanity---to become reconnected.


There's nothing obvious about that, or even sensible.

Phat writes:

Our major mistake as a species was disconnecting.


Species don't make mistakes. Only individuals make mistakes.

And the whole "disconnection" thing is just another lie told by apologists. The whole Bible is about people connecting with God.


"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-29-2019 3:24 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-21-2020 4:47 PM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32031
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 291 of 297 (869397)
12-29-2019 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Thugpreacha
12-29-2019 3:32 PM


Re: The best questions are generally threatening
Phat writes:

So you reject the "dogma" that God is good all the time and all the time God is good?

What is the evidence from the Bible Phat?

The Dogma is simply a denial of what is actually written in the Bible and creating a God in the Apologists image.

And the evidence seems to scare you. Again, note that you did not provide any evidence or logic or reasoning and just revert to "Apologists said it first".


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-29-2019 3:32 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13571
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 292 of 297 (870531)
01-21-2020 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by jar
12-29-2019 3:01 PM


Is God Good or Complete?
I was always taught that God is good. A God Who is simply "complete" as you suggest is not logical as he would essentially have a dualistic personality.

Modern Charismania always has a Hero (Jesus) a Villain(Satan) and a Victim: Unregenerate humans.

Ironically, global politics has followed this theme.
We have a Hero (US Freedom and Democracy, a Villain(Islam is the most recent, along with Terrorism) and a Victim. I often see myself as the victim, but we have discussed others---namely ethnic minorities. It seems as if the global struggle always involves some who want what others have.

But getting back to this---why is God complete rather than good? A case can be made scripturallly for both positions.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by jar, posted 12-29-2019 3:01 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by jar, posted 01-21-2020 4:47 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13571
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 293 of 297 (870532)
01-21-2020 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by ringo
12-29-2019 3:39 PM


Re: Getting Around To Answering Ringos Questions
ringo writes:

The whole Bible is about people connecting with God.

Which "God" though? Good One? Complete One? Or even the bad one...Iran calls us "The Great Satan"...is there any truth to that?

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by ringo, posted 12-29-2019 3:39 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by ringo, posted 01-21-2020 9:22 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32031
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 294 of 297 (870533)
01-21-2020 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Thugpreacha
01-21-2020 4:43 PM


Re: Is God Good or Complete?
Phat writes:

But getting back to this---why is God complete rather than good? A case can be made scripturallly for both positions.

What scripture? Are you going back to the pick the scripture you like conjob that is the Hall Mark of the Charismatic?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-21-2020 4:43 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-21-2020 5:02 PM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13571
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 295 of 297 (870536)
01-21-2020 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by jar
01-21-2020 4:47 PM


Re: Is God Good or Complete?
How can you possibly determine which scripture to pick then? What is the purpose of scripture?

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by jar, posted 01-21-2020 4:47 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by jar, posted 01-21-2020 5:41 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32031
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 296 of 297 (870539)
01-21-2020 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Thugpreacha
01-21-2020 5:02 PM


Re: Is God Good or Complete?
Phat writes:

How can you possibly determine which scripture to pick then? What is the purpose of scripture?

First scripture is any writings assumed to be related to divinity. The Qur'an and Book of the Dead and Eight Fold Path and Bhagavad Git all have similar standing, similar authority, similar validity.

People pick and choose based on the God or Theology they wish to create.

It's possible to learn from the content of all scripture and the purpose of all scripture is to market the position favored by the author.

The readers task is to test the content against reason, logic and reality.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-21-2020 5:02 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17835
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 297 of 297 (870547)
01-21-2020 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Thugpreacha
01-21-2020 4:47 PM


Re: Getting Around To Answering Ringos Questions
Phat writes:

Iran calls us "The Great Satan"...is there any truth to that?


That's pretty much the whole truth. The only Satan is us - but us including Iran of course.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-21-2020 4:47 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
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