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Author Topic:   Charismatic Chaos
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7343
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 421 of 531 (871605)
02-06-2020 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 415 by ringo
02-06-2020 10:51 AM


Re: Whining for A Free pass
ringo writes:

That's too broad a definition. Racism implies that one group is superior to another group and assumed superiority results in the gathering of power to the "superior" group. You are not racist if you are powerless.

Well ok if you need to be dictionary precise about it, I'll settle for racially prejudiced instead of racist.

quote:
Racism is different from racial prejudice, hatred, or discrimination. Racism involves one group having the power to carry out systematic discrimination through the institutional policies and practices of the society and by shaping the cultural beliefs and values that support those racist policies and practices.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by ringo, posted 02-06-2020 10:51 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2020 1:12 PM Tangle has responded
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jar
Member
Posts: 32167
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 422 of 531 (871606)
02-06-2020 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 417 by ringo
02-06-2020 11:07 AM


Re: Whining for A Free pass
ringo writes:

You contradict yourself. You can not have racist behavior without power.

Nonsense. It is simply that racist behavior by the powerless is annoying at worst. But it is not racism that is the issue but behavior and behavior is always judged across a wide spectrum of tolerance.

Edited by jar, : No reason given.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7042
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 423 of 531 (871607)
02-06-2020 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 421 by Tangle
02-06-2020 12:25 PM


Re: Whining for A Free pass
No one has or could claim that people of color and other minorities can not be racially prejudiced. That would be stupid to claim. AS Hyro has done he has found examples of people of color with racial prejudice. That is radically different form racism and institutional racism as Ringo has pointed out, because of the power dynamic.
If a random person of color expresses anti-white racist views there is no real effect on society at large, but when people of the dominant group express racism or institutions of society express racist views there is a power dynamic that perpetuates, the racism we see throughout society even to this day.
Again still stunned by the idea that pointing out racism and white privilege is interpreted as a racist action. Stunning.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by Tangle, posted 02-06-2020 12:25 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 424 of 531 (871608)
02-06-2020 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 423 by Theodoric
02-06-2020 1:12 PM


Re: Whining for A Free pass
Again still stunned by the idea that pointing out racism and white privilege is interpreted as a racist action. Stunning.
Because they (at least Hyro and probably Faith) don't see you as addressing the artificial construct. They see you as addressing Whiteness as a problem rather than a generational privilege as the problem. I know that you are not addressing whiteness. You are addressing the unawareness of the privilege itself.

Many white people get defensive because they suddenly feel singled out yet also singled out as a group, not understanding the problem that led to this necessity.

When Trump used to address his base, he told them that they need not feel forgotten anymore. he likely understood that poorer white people feel it coming from both sides---the powerful group at the top of the economic spectrum, the pressure to belong to (and thus benefit) from this groups power, and the pressure from the rising masses globally who are no longer going to take getting exploited.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2020 1:12 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7343
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 425 of 531 (871616)
02-06-2020 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 423 by Theodoric
02-06-2020 1:12 PM


Re: Whining for A Free pass
Theo writes:

No one has or could claim that people of color and other minorities can not be racially prejudiced. That would be stupid to claim.

Good. Hold that thought.

AS Hyro has done he has found examples of people of color with racial prejudice. That is radically different form racism and institutional racism as Ringo has pointed out, because of the power dynamic.

If you're going to be picky about the technical meanings of racism and racial prejudice then you need to stop using the word 'racist' in your posts unless it's exactly what you mean. If you look back over them you'll find that you use the term many times when you're talking of prejudice not the full blown apartheid racism of the definition. There's nobody on this forum that has any power over you - so long as you keep to the rules which don't appear to me to be institutionally racist.

If a random person of color expresses anti-white *racist* views

You see?

when people of the dominant group express racism or institutions of society express racist views there is a power dynamic that perpetuates, the racism we see throughout society even to this day.

Sure and that's what we need to change - and I believe it is changing but god knows, not fast enough.

Again still stunned by the idea that pointing out racism and white privilege is interpreted as a racist action. Stunning.

Then you need to think about why that is happening. You don't enjoy being randomly and indiscriminately (sic) called whatever it is people call you because of the colour of your skin alone, and neither do I. You don't know me, don't know my values, don't even know that I'm white, so why chuck deliberate insults around? It doesn't help your cause.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2020 1:12 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5950
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 426 of 531 (871618)
02-06-2020 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 415 by ringo
02-06-2020 10:51 AM


Re: Whining for A Free pass
That's too broad a definition. Racism implies that one group is superior to another group and assumed superiority results in the gathering of power to the "superior" group. You are not racist if you are powerless.

I disagree with that and so does the dictionary. Power makes it easier to manifest one's racism in the form of oppression but its not a requirement to hate someone based upon their race alone. If I'm in a town with only 5% Japanese people in it and the other 95% are white, obviously the locus of power would be in the masses. It would obviously make it much more difficult for me to be truly oppressed by those 5%. But that doesn't mean that I can't the subject of nepotism based solely on race, doesn't mean that I can't be called a blue-eyed devil, doesn't mean that they can't say or do things to me only based on my race. Now, if I'm actually living in Japan and I'm now the 5% minority and I face those ugly things, its easier to call it racism because power makes oppression easier, but stripped down to its purest form it just means either/or the belief that one race is superior to another or the discrimination of people based only on account of race. Anyone, at any time, is capable of that.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by ringo, posted 02-06-2020 10:51 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5950
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 427 of 531 (871619)
02-06-2020 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 423 by Theodoric
02-06-2020 1:12 PM


Re: Whining for A Free pass
No one has or could claim that people of color and other minorities can not be racially prejudiced. That would be stupid to claim. AS Hyro has done he has found examples of people of color with racial prejudice. That is radically different form racism and institutional racism as Ringo has pointed out, because of the power dynamic.

Well, then perhaps we should clarify our terms. Racism simply means you believe your race is superior to others (whether you act upon it or not) or that you would discriminate against people based only race.

If a random person of color expresses anti-white racist views there is no real effect on society at large, but when people of the dominant group express racism or institutions of society express racist views there is a power dynamic that perpetuates, the racism we see throughout society even to this day.

I agree that the majority has more power to inflict more harm in the form of actual oppression, which is the shifting of a racist BELIEF into an ACTION that harms its victims. But I would disagree that it has no effect at all... in fact it bolsters racists. It legitimizes why they hate another race. Its not helpful, it just adds to the shit storm instead of neutralizing it.

When you strip away what I am saying (and not to put words in his mouth but sounds as if Tangle agrees), that while perhaps understandable to a certain degree, I don't think it is helpful. Its pouring gasoline on an already raging inferno.

Again still stunned by the idea that pointing out racism and white privilege is interpreted as a racist action. Stunning.

Because you've made it racial and therefore IMPOSSIBLE to change. That's the problem. Not a single one of us is capable of changing our race, so you are reducing white people the same as a Nazi reduces Jews and blacks.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2020 1:12 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17924
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 428 of 531 (871628)
02-07-2020 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 421 by Tangle
02-06-2020 12:25 PM


Re: Whining for A Free pass
Tangle writes:

Well ok if you need to be dictionary precise about it, I'll settle for racially prejudiced instead of racist.


Yes, your dictionary definition says exactly what I said, "Racism involves one group having the power to carry out systematic discrimination....[/qs]

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by Tangle, posted 02-06-2020 12:25 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17924
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 429 of 531 (871629)
02-07-2020 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 422 by jar
02-06-2020 12:30 PM


Re: Whining for A Free pass
jar writes:

But it is not racism that is the issue but behavior....


As Tangle's dictionary agrees with me, racism is behavior.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by jar, posted 02-06-2020 12:30 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 430 by Phat, posted 02-07-2020 11:04 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 430 of 531 (871630)
02-07-2020 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 429 by ringo
02-07-2020 10:55 AM


Christianity Was Originally A Minority Belief
Seeing as how this topic is in Charismatic chaos, allow me to frame these issues back towards the actual topic.
  • When Christianity allegedly began, it was due to one Rabbi standing up against a religious system yet speaking of a Bigger Picture. A Minority (of one) speaking to a minority belief(The Jews) about changing their behavior. This man was killed. Reports that he had risen from the dead followed.

  • Saul of Tarsus, a Roman citizen from the Majority power culture at that time, brought the religion into the mainstream. The message was still in the context of a minority religion struggling for identity.
  • Constantine adopted Christianity as the official state religion of the Roman Empire. The religion thus mutated into a majority nationalistic belief. I need to read more of the history so as to solidify my point. namely that Christianity was never meant to be about the many powerful people getting a political boost from God. It was always about the few. The powerless.

    I predict that it will again become the religion of the poor.

    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 429 by ringo, posted 02-07-2020 10:55 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 432 by ringo, posted 02-07-2020 11:21 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
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    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17924
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 431 of 531 (871631)
    02-07-2020 11:11 AM
    Reply to: Message 426 by Hyroglyphx
    02-06-2020 6:20 PM


    Re: Whining for A Free pass
    Hyroglyphx writes:

    I disagree with that and so does the dictionary.


    The dictionary includes a wide range of usages. In the context of this discussion, a broad definition that includes all forms of racial discrimination is not useful.

    Hroglyphx writes:

    Power makes it easier to manifest one's racism in the form of oppression but its not a requirement to hate someone based upon their race alone.


    Again, "hating someone based upon their race alone" is too wishy-washy to be useful in this discussion. Use the word "hate" instead of racism.

    Hyroglyphx writes:

    ... stripped down to its purest form it just means either/or the belief that one race is superior to another or the discrimination of people based only on account of race.


    Beliefs are irrelevant. I doubt that Theodoric cares whether somebody believes they are superior to him or whether they believe that pink unicorns are secretly ruling the earth. Beliefs only matter when they impinge on other people's lives and they can only do that through action. That action can take the form of burning a cross on a lawn or just closing your eyes.

    Hyroglyphx writes:

    Anyone, at any time, is capable of that.


    Sure, a gringo in Mexico can be a victim of racism. But the only society we can improve is our own.

    "I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

    This message is a reply to:
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    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17924
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 432 of 531 (871633)
    02-07-2020 11:21 AM
    Reply to: Message 430 by Phat
    02-07-2020 11:04 AM


    Re: Christianity Was Originally A Minority Belief
    Phat writes:

    I predict that it will again become the religion of the poor.


    In Message 424 you said:
    quote:
    When Trump used to address his base, he told them that they need not feel forgotten anymore. he likely understood that poorer white people feel it coming from both sides---the powerful group at the top of the economic spectrum, the pressure to belong to (and thus benefit) from this groups power, and the pressure from the rising masses globally who are no longer going to take getting exploited.

    I think you were closer to the mark there. The poor and the rich are on the same side, just like the poor white Southerners who supported slavery.

    "I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 430 by Phat, posted 02-07-2020 11:04 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32167
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.1


    (1)
    Message 433 of 531 (871638)
    02-07-2020 12:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 430 by Phat
    02-07-2020 11:04 AM


    Re: Christianity Was Originally A Minority Belief
    Phat writes:

    Saul of Tarsus, a Roman citizen from the Majority power culture at that time, brought the religion into the mainstream. The message was still in the context of a minority religion struggling for identity.

    Hardly Phat. Christianity never even got close to mainstream until Constantine.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
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    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 5075
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 2.2


    (1)
    Message 434 of 531 (871639)
    02-07-2020 12:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 430 by Phat
    02-07-2020 11:04 AM


    Re: Christianity Was Originally A Minority Belief
    Phat writes:

    Constantine adopted Christianity as the official state religion of the Roman Empire. The religion thus mutated into a majority nationalistic belief. I need to read more of the history so as to solidify my point. namely that Christianity was never meant to be about the many powerful people getting a political boost from God. It was always about the few. The powerless.

    Here is a quote from a book by Alan Kreider called The Patient Ferment of the Early Church

    quote:
    “Candidates for baptism came from differing backgrounds – Jewish and pagan, Greek and Roman. They also were of both sexes and a range of social classes. Most were poor and some were slaves, but a few were comfortably well-off. Some of the candidates were illiterate. Somehow the church’s teaching was meant to reach all of these, for all were important in the Christian church. The teachers conveyed to the candidates that, although they valued education, refined learning was not the point; the instruction was not designed to produce sophisticated thought but “character” and “virtuous living”. “

    The next sentence from the book succinctly tells us how Christianity was lived and how it was spread in its first 3 centuries.
    quote:
    “The church’s growth was the product, not of the Christians’ persuasive powers, but of their convincing life style.

    The early Christians were highly distinctive in contrast to their violent, self-serving culture, for the way that they loved each other, the way that loved their neighbours and even their enemies. For their beliefs they more often than not endured poverty, isolation and sometimes torture and death.

    Unfortunately that all changed when Constantine, issued the “Edict of Milan”. This proclamation legalized Christianity and allowed for freedom of worship throughout the empire.

    This was actually a good thing for the existing Christians but it in my view was a terrible thing for Christianity in general. Christians were no longer being persecuted as they had been but it was disastrous for what it did to how Christianity was lived and understood.

    Just for one thing, Constantine was baptized on his death and not earlier as he felt that being baptized would make calls that he wouldn’t want to deal with in the way he ruled the empire.

    He still felt free to maintain power by use of force, could pass death sentences and rule in the traditional manner of Roman emperors.
    As I see it, all of this resulted in at least 4 specific ways that Christianity drew away from the teachings of Jesus.

    1/It moved the church away from the non-aggression stance taken by Jesus and it has impacted the thinking of the church right through the middle ages and is still an influence today.

    2/Another change that came as a result of this was that, whereas the early Christian Church had been largely egalitarian, even though it had Bishops, it now to a large degree gave undue influence to political leaders, and in this case Roman political leaders. The gulf between what was secular and what was Christian had to a large degree been crossed.

    3/ It also moved the centre of a large segment of Christianity away from Jerusalem and to Rome which gave a strong start to separating Christianity and Jesus from their Jewish roots. Up to this time Christianity had been rooted in the Jewishness of Jesus and the Jewish understanding of life, death and message of Jesus. This allowed for a Latin input into Christian doctrine but to a much greater extent Christianity took on board a great deal of Greek philosophy and particularly the philosophy of Plato.

    4/ In the book “The Patient Ferment” as indicated by the title one of the major hall marks of the first three centuries of Christianity was “patience”. These early Christians were not focused on growing the church but to patiently let it grow driven the example of their life style of sexual fidelity, love and courage.

    Hopefully we can get back to that.


    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

    Micah 6:8


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 430 by Phat, posted 02-07-2020 11:04 AM Phat has not yet responded

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    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17924
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 435 of 531 (871640)
    02-07-2020 12:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 434 by GDR
    02-07-2020 12:17 PM


    Re: Christianity Was Originally A Minority Belief
    GDR writes:

    The early Christians were highly distinctive in contrast to their violent, self-serving culture, for the way that they loved each other, the way that loved their neighbours and even their enemies.


    Is there any evidence of that?

    "I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 434 by GDR, posted 02-07-2020 12:17 PM GDR has responded

    Replies to this message:
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