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Author Topic:   Charismatic Chaos
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7343
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 436 of 531 (871642)
02-07-2020 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 431 by ringo
02-07-2020 11:11 AM


Re: Whining for A Free pass
ringo writes:

Sure, a gringo in Mexico can be a victim of racism.

Just as a demonstration of the asymmetry of values here, somehow you are comfortable saying that but might not be so comfortable saying...

“Sure, a [slang word for Mexican] in the USA can be a victim of racism” ?

Not being from your part of the world I don't know what that word might be.

The 'n' word is now completely outlawed - for good reason - I'm pretty sure you wouldn't say that now.

Some things seem ok, like me calling an American a Yank, or an Australian an Ozzie. We're ok being called whining Brits by the Ozzies because we know it's just part of the fun.

These things only become offensive when they're being used aggressively and as deliberate insults. And 'privileged white guy' is being used just like that now - almost always indiscriminately and almost always in a really nasty way against people that clearly are not racist or racially prejudiced in any way. They just happen to be white. This is going to backfire.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by ringo, posted 02-07-2020 11:11 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 440 by ringo, posted 02-08-2020 10:53 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5075
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 437 of 531 (871643)
02-07-2020 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 435 by ringo
02-07-2020 12:24 PM


Re: Christianity Was Originally A Minority Belief
ringo writes:

Is there any evidence of that?


My source is the book by Kreider. Here are his credentials from wiki.
quote:
Kreider was educated at Goshen College, Indiana (BA 1962), Princeton University (1962–63), Heidelberg University (1963–64), Harvard University (AM 1965) (PhD 1971), and the University of London (1966–68). He has been the recipient of a Danforth Fellowship (1962–68), a Harvard Travelling Fellowship (1966–67), and an American Council of Learned Societies Fellowship (1972–74). In 1995 he was accorded the status of Master of Arts in the University of Oxford and his name was added to the Register of Congregation.[1]

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 435 by ringo, posted 02-07-2020 12:24 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 438 of 531 (871649)
02-07-2020 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 435 by ringo
02-07-2020 12:24 PM


Re: Christianity Was Originally A Minority Belief
You must surely be the worlds biggest skeptic. I suppose you think that not only was jesus made up but the very character of the people of the Way. Of course our evidence can only be from written writings as well as perhaps some indicators from Archeological digs, though as a group, the early Christians were rather poor. no buried Mercedes or Airplanes to testify of their presence.

And I suppose you can and do argue that any group of people can be loving and selfless. I still think you miss the additional spark that some people have. yes, I am claiming that being a true Christian involves an inner awakening, but of course, this could just be my understanding. I will dig for more evidence

Of course, we have These if we dare trust that they are not yet another scam. I am skeptical, but not cynical. I think that God exists and actually does touch His annointed. .


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 435 by ringo, posted 02-07-2020 12:24 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 439 by jar, posted 02-07-2020 4:59 PM Phat has responded
 Message 441 by ringo, posted 02-08-2020 11:00 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 442 by dwise1, posted 02-08-2020 12:16 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32167
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 439 of 531 (871650)
02-07-2020 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 438 by Phat
02-07-2020 4:52 PM


Re: Christianity Was Originally A Minority Belief
I'm sorry but the whole idea that the existence of martyrs adds any evidence of validity of some idea is simply stupid. The very idea to market such crap is simply evidence that the audience is assumed to be stupid.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by Phat, posted 02-07-2020 4:52 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 443 by Phat, posted 02-08-2020 3:31 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17924
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 440 of 531 (871663)
02-08-2020 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 436 by Tangle
02-07-2020 12:31 PM


Re: Whining for A Free pass
Tangle writes:

Just as a demonstration of the asymmetry of values here, somehow you are comfortable saying that but might not be so comfortable saying...

“Sure, a [slang word for Mexican] in the USA can be a victim of racism” ?


Well, of course there are things I can call myself that I can't call other people.

The point is that I don't mind calling myself a gringo or being called a gringo because I have never been a victim of my gringoness. As far as I'm concerned, it isn't an insult. My culture has groomed me to take pride in my gringoness. Even while being persecuted by a Mexican majority, I would be inwardly looking down on them.

Tangle writes:

Not being from your part of the world I don't know what that word might be.


We don't have many Mexicans here. Our Hispanics tend to be Salvadorans, Nicaraguans, etc. - i.e. victims of American foreign policy. I've worked with a lot of them. They're the best people I know, despite my innate racism.

Tangle writes:

These things only become offensive when they're being used aggressively and as deliberate insults.


Well, I have used the n-word a couple of times on this forum, not aggressively and not as an insult. No offense was intended and, as far as I know, none was taken.

Tangle writes:

And 'privileged white guy' is being used just like that now....


A fat guy doesn't have any right to be insulted if somebody calls him fat. Embarassment might be appropriate. He might even be thankful for having it pointed out.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by Tangle, posted 02-07-2020 12:31 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17924
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 441 of 531 (871664)
02-08-2020 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 438 by Phat
02-07-2020 4:52 PM


Re: Christianity Was Originally A Minority Belief
Phat writes:

You must surely be the worlds biggest skeptic.


Because I ask for evidence? No, that would be the world's smallest skeptic. Asking for evidence is literally the least I can do without being a gullible fool.

Phat writes:

I suppose you think that not only was jesus made up but the very character of the people of the Way.


There is no evidence that Jesus existed. But the charaqcter of the "people of the Way" is definitely not superior, according to the evidence.

Phat writes:

And I suppose you can and do argue that any group of people can be loving and selfless.


I can and do argue that non-Christians are at least as loving and selfless, often more so.

Phat writes:

I still think you miss the additional spark that some people have.


In the same way that you miss the unicorns grazing in your living room.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by Phat, posted 02-07-2020 4:52 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3975
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 442 of 531 (871668)
02-08-2020 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 438 by Phat
02-07-2020 4:52 PM


Re: Christianity Was Originally A Minority Belief
Of course, we have These if we dare trust that they are not yet another scam.

I seem to recall having heard something about not using bare links. If you want to bring up ideas about martyrs, then you should just do so and not hide it with a bare link. Even better, since martyrs for all kinds of movements have existed, shouldn't you also present why you would think that bringing up martyrs would be relevent?

Another example of a martyr would be Host Wessel, a young Sturmabteilung (SA) brown-shirt murdered by a Communist:

quote:
Horst Ludwig Georg Erich Wessel (9 October 1907 – 23 February 1930), commonly known as Horst Wessel, was a Berlin leader of the Nazi Party's stormtroopers, the Sturmabteilung (SA). After his murder in 1930, he was made into a martyr for the Nazi cause by Joseph Goebbels.

Wessel first joined a number of youth groups and extreme right-wing paramilitary groups, but later resigned from them and joined the SA, the brownshirted street-fighting stormtroopers of the Nazi Party. He rose to command several SA squads and districts. On 14 January 1930, he was shot in the head by two members of the Communist Party of Germany (KPD). Albrecht "Ali" Höhler was arrested and charged with his murder. Höhler was initially sentenced to six years in prison, but was forcibly taken out of jail and killed by the SA after the Nazis came to power.

Wessel's funeral was given wide attention in Berlin, with many of the Nazi elite in attendance. After his death, he became a major propaganda symbol in Nazi Germany. The march he had written the lyrics to was renamed the "Horst-Wessel-Lied" ("Horst Wessel Song"), and became the official anthem of the Nazi Party. After Adolf Hitler came to national power in 1933, the song became the co-national anthem of Germany, along with the first verse of the "Deutschlandlied", also known as "Deutschland über alles".


I will not try to summarize the sordid and convoluted tale of Wessel's murder except to say that it had almost nothing to do with the ideological basis for his being a martyr. My point is that the mere existence of martyrs says nothing for the validity or value of that for which they were martyred (or made into a martyr). Praise be to Godwin.

There's also the issue of many Christians' obsession with martyrdom and the problems that it causes.

On the social and political level, it plays out with hypocritical wailing about being persecuted by everybody. To be sure, religious discrimination and persecution do exist, but in the USA it's the Christians who are doing the discriminating and persecuting of others, not the other way around. In practically the same breath in which they point to other intolerant countries where Christians are a minority lacking political power to stop the imposition of the governing religion, they then seek to use political power to impose their own governing religion on non-Christians. And when the laws and the Constitution thwart their efforts, then they claim that they're being persecuted against by not being allowed to persecute others. And when non-Christians speak out against their efforts, then they start whining that every hates them just "because they love Jesus" (an actual reason an actual creationist gave for his often vicious pathological lying).

Here's a pertinent illustration. I tried to find this scene on YouTube from the Bob Newhart Show (the one with Suzanne Pleshette), one of the show's many short scenes of Bob with a patient (quoting from memory from about 40 years ago):

quote:
Bob's patient is a bitter middle-aged black man who continually complains that everybody hates him just because he's black.
Patient: Everybody hates me just because I'm black.

Bob: Have you ever considered that maybe the reason people don't like you is because you are not a pleasant person to be around?

Patient (experiencing a breakthrough): Wow, I never thought about it that way. Thanks, Doc.


IOW, haven't our USA "persecuted and hated Christians" ever considered that the reason why people reacted so negatively to them is because those Christians' constant efforts at persecution and attacking other beliefs (which is the basis of proselytizing) make them very unpleasant to be around? And then to add insult to injury, once they have driven you to hating them for their behavior they insist that it's God that you hate.

So how can that kind of conduct lead to successful proselytizing? A posting from Quora reposted by Ed Babinski on FaceBook last summer says that conversion is not the goal:

quote:

Why do people get angry when I try to share the word of God with them? I only do it because I care about them deeply and don't want them to end up in hell. I feel like some people avoid me because of this. Is there any way to get through to them?

by Doug Robertson, studied at University of Maine
Updated Dec 11 2018


The entire process is not what you think it is.

It is specifically designed to be uncomfortable for the other person because it isn't about converting them to your religion. It is about manipulating you so you can't leave yours.

If this tactic was about converting people it would be considered a horrible failure. It recruits almost no one who isn't already willing to join. Bake sales are more effective recruiting tools.

On the other hand, it is extremely effective at creating a deep tribal feeling among its own members.

The rejection they receive is actually more important than the few people they convert. It causes them to feel a level of discomfort around the people they attempt to talk to. These become the "others". These uncomfortable feelings go away when they come back to their congregation, the "Tribe".

If you take a good look at the process it becomes fairly clear. In most cases, the religious person starts out from their own group, who is encouraging and supportive. They are then sent out into the harsh world where people repeatedly reject them. Mainly because they are trained to be so annoying.

These brave witnesses then return from the cruel world to their congregation where they are treated like returning heroes. They are now safe. They bond as they share their experiences of reaching out to the godless people to bring them the truth. They share the otherness they experience.

Once again they will learn that the only place they are accepted is with the people who think as they do. It isn't safe to leave the group. The world is your enemy, but we love you.

This is a pain reward cycle that is a common brainwashing technique. The participants become more and more reliant on the "Tribe" because they know that "others" reject them.

Mix in some ritualized chanting, possibly a bit of monotonous repetition of instructions, add a dash of fear of judgment by an unseen, but all-powerful entity who loves you if you do as you are told and you get a pretty powerful mix.

Sorry, I have absolutely no wish to participate in someones brainwashing ritual.



This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by Phat, posted 02-07-2020 4:52 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by Phat, posted 02-08-2020 3:35 PM dwise1 has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 443 of 531 (871672)
02-08-2020 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 439 by jar
02-07-2020 4:59 PM


From Another Topic...
Lets drop the whole Martyr schtick. I perused the website and was unimpressed.

jar writes:

What people are actually saying is that people need food, need clothes, need shelter, need protection, need healing, need comforting, need educating.
Chores need to get done.

Fine. Great, even! Let's continue to do them. Being a believer is about more than doing chores and following the message, however.
jar writes:

If God wants to feed the people, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, protect the weak, heal the sick, comfort the sorrowful, educate the ignorant and do the chores then great but looking around it does not seem that God wants to do all that.

Yet people still need food, need clothes, need shelter, need protection, need healing, need comforting, need educating and until God does it there is no other option but man doing it.

yes, this is what you and ringo continually emphasize. Christians have a charge and a duty. I like people. I like to talk with them and share stories. I like to give them food, clothes, and encouragement.
jar writes:

Now if you have some bigger concept that has some value or worth then perhaps this is a great time to present it.

God knows I've been trying!

jar writes:

Folk are open to learning what this bigger concept is and how it will feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, protect the weak, heal the sick, comfort the sorrowful, educate the ignorant and do the chores.

Arrrrrggggghhh! The bigger concept is not simply about the zen of cheerfully doing chores.
Phat, addressing ringo writes:

God is a much bigger concept than ringo feeding people and doing his chores.


ringo writes:

Why would we need - or want - a concept bigger than that?


It would be nice to meet God someday.

jar, referring to VOM writes:

The very idea to market such crap is simply evidence that the audience is assumed to be stupid.

If you inherited a church, would you market anything more than doing chores? Would Your Sign Say: The Church Of The Risen Ego?(Since you threw God away)

You always ask how a relationship with Jesus is even possible. Why do you think they initially made a Book of Common Prayer? Were they simply talking to themselves?

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by jar, posted 02-07-2020 4:59 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 446 by jar, posted 02-08-2020 4:41 PM Phat has responded
 Message 451 by ringo, posted 02-09-2020 1:16 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 444 of 531 (871673)
02-08-2020 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 442 by dwise1
02-08-2020 12:16 PM


Re: Christianity Was Originally A Minority Belief
Dwise1 writes:

Sorry, I have absolutely no wish to participate in someones brainwashing ritual.

I take it you don't listen to mainstream news then?

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 442 by dwise1, posted 02-08-2020 12:16 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 445 by dwise1, posted 02-08-2020 4:30 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3975
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 445 of 531 (871676)
02-08-2020 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 444 by Phat
02-08-2020 3:35 PM


Re: Christianity Was Originally A Minority Belief
So then. You take a single sentence out of the reposting of a complete message that I in turn reposted here and you misrepresent it as something that I myself wrote? All to redirect attention away from what that quoted message was saying?

Wow. Just wow.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by Phat, posted 02-08-2020 3:35 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32167
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 446 of 531 (871677)
02-08-2020 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 443 by Phat
02-08-2020 3:31 PM


Re: From Another Topic...
Phat writes:

Being a believer is about more than doing chores and following the message, however.

What does the evidence show Phat? The audience at TRUMP rallies is 100% believers.

Phat writes:

If you inherited a church, would you market anything more than doing chores?

No Phat. It would teach doing those chores.

quote:
And now, Father, send us out
to do the work you have given us to do,
to love and serve you
as faithful witnesses of Christ our Lord.
To him, to you, and to the Holy Spirit,
be honor and glory, now and for ever. Amen.

The message is all about work Phat. The way that we are charged to witness is through what we do in our everyday lives, away from the communion and as part of everything we do. The Church is a place to gather to reflect on the week past and renew commitments for the coming week.

Phat writes:

You always ask how a relationship with Jesus is even possible. Why do you think they initially made a Book of Common Prayer? Were they simply talking to themselves?

That's simply stupid Phat and as always, totally irrelevant to the question of how a relationship with Jesus is even possible.

The main Purpose of the BCP is to provide a relatively uniform progression for a long term worship service; to incorporate the lessons found in the Bible and all other founding documents of Christianity into every single day of our life. It is about how to live life as a Christian THIS DAY among all others; those of the Faith and those outside. It is actually meant to be a part of life outside the church and directly in each household. Take a look at the Morning and Evening services section some time as both are designed to by led by laypeople and most often in individual homes as part of regular daily life.

Historically though the BCP like the later KJV was a political creation and designed to help establish order in England in 1549 during the break with the Church of Rome and so was created to provide an alternative to the Roman Catholic Lectionary and follows a similar design and only slightly modified content.

As an English political document it was abolished several times and then reinstated as the State Religion changed in England and has also been revised many times; each to reflect modern needs and mythos. Each revision has been contentious and several failed ratification.

Again, as a political as well as religious document is has evolved to be not just one thing but rather a spectrum of things which can be selected by individual congregations to reflect their local prejudices.

Phat writes:

The bigger concept is not simply about the zen of cheerfully doing chores.

Then present it Phat. What is the bigger concept?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by Phat, posted 02-08-2020 3:31 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 447 by Phat, posted 02-09-2020 10:20 AM jar has responded
 Message 448 by Phat, posted 02-09-2020 11:08 AM jar has acknowledged this reply
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Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 447 of 531 (871683)
02-09-2020 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 446 by jar
02-08-2020 4:41 PM


Two Commandments & Two Questions
jar writes:

The message is all about work Phat. The way that we are charged to witness is through what we do in our everyday lives, away from the communion and as part of everything we do. The Church is a place to gather to reflect on the week past and renew commitments for the coming week.

I don't attend church on a regular basis. I have honestly never been able to fully embrace commonality or find enduring friendships in the church. Nevertheless, I do believe that corporate worship--prayer with a group of people--unites us if but for that moment. So as to how the two greatest commandments play out in organized religion, the 2nd part of the greatest commandment plays out in corporate worship and prayer.
Phat, to jar writes:

ou always ask how a relationship with Jesus is even possible. Why do you think they initially made a Book of Common Prayer? Were they simply talking to themselves?


jar writes:

That's simply stupid Phat and as always, totally irrelevant to the question of how a relationship with Jesus is even possible.

The main purpose of the BCP is to provide a relatively uniform progression for a long term worship service; to incorporate the lessons found in the Bible and all other founding documents of Christianity into every single day of our life. It is about how to live life as a Christian THIS DAY among all others; those of the Faith and those outside. It is actually meant to be a part of life outside the church and directly in each household. (...)

And what still bothers me is your idea that the lessons can have value even if not literally coming from God.

So right now, two questions are stuck in my mind regarding what you say.
1) Why do you feel it is productive, necessary, and dare I say even possible to "Throw God Away?"

2) The fact that nobody has ever been able to explain to you what a relationship with Jesus even is or how it is possible baffles and challenges me. You showed how you became a believer. Why would you even think such a thing?


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by jar, posted 02-08-2020 4:41 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 449 by jar, posted 02-09-2020 12:09 PM Phat has responded
 Message 452 by ringo, posted 02-09-2020 1:20 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 448 of 531 (871685)
02-09-2020 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 446 by jar
02-08-2020 4:41 PM


Throwing God Away. Is It Blasphemous? Or Useful?.
jar writes:

What does the evidence show Phat? The audience at TRUMP rallies is 100% believers.

yeah...believers in Trump. The evangelical community even gathered around him and laid hands on him once or twice. His behavior shows no evidenc of the Holy Spirit, but then neither does mine sometimes. To me, the evidence overall shows that people are capable of either extreme empathy or extreme selfishness and are basically just human.

At church, however, I have seen evidence of radical transformations, but the change never lasts without being fed. Perhaps that is what you mean by "throwing away"...letting go of the scripted dogma and behavior that one is expected to follow and allowing nature to take its course. Some would call it deconversion, but I will be positive enough to say that it is more of a re-conversion back towards reality and out of the cultic mentality. (At the risk of ire from Believers)

Phat writes:

The bigger concept is not simply about the zen of cheerfully doing chores.


jar writes:

Then present it Phat. What is the bigger concept?

I will stand on the assertion that the bigger concept is a day to day relationship with GOD through Jesus.

And here we are again.

  • What Does That Even Mean? How Is It Possible?

    In order to attempt to answer that, I find myself running into your accusations that I create the God I worship and/or expect.

    If I threw away the belief that Jesus is alive and is knowable, I would be leaving myself hopeless and defenseless. Plus the fact that He may not like such a decision.


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 446 by jar, posted 02-08-2020 4:41 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32167
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.1


    Message 449 of 531 (871687)
    02-09-2020 12:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 447 by Phat
    02-09-2020 10:20 AM


    Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
    Phat writes:

    And what still bothers me is your idea that the lessons can have value even if not literally coming from God.

    Why Phat? Why does it bother you?

    Phat writes:

    Why do you feel it is productive, necessary, and dare I say even possible to "Throw God Away?"

    Because ALL of the evidence shows that every single God(s) or god(s) is just the product of a human imagination and that they exist only so long as there are believers that they are more than just the product of a human imagination.

    Phat writes:

    The fact that nobody has ever been able to explain to you what a relationship with Jesus even is or how it is possible baffles and challenges me.

    Yet the fact is that neither you or anyone else has ever explained what that means or how it could be possible.

    Facts, evidence, counts.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 447 by Phat, posted 02-09-2020 10:20 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 454 by Phat, posted 02-09-2020 4:28 PM jar has responded

      
    dwise1
    Member
    Posts: 3975
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 450 of 531 (871688)
    02-09-2020 1:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 446 by jar
    02-08-2020 4:41 PM


    Re: From Another Topic...
    The audience at TRUMP rallies is 100% believers.

    At my OLLI we have a class, Cyber Security and Warfare, which is held every other Wednesday. We covered this tangentially last Wednesday.

    Two classes ago we looked at big data and how our location and movements are being through our mobile phones. That includes a practice called geo-fencing in which the GPS coordinates for a particular location is mapped out and all phones entering that area are logged in a big data database. Even though the big data collector normally doesn't have access to tie your phone's ID to your personal identity, that phone can still be targeted with ads and propaganda.

    The example we were given two classes ago was an abortion provider whose building had been geo-fenced and all phones entering that building were logged. Then that big data was either sold or given to an anti-abortion organization who, with the assumption that those phones belonged to women seeking an abortion, flooded those phones with anti-abortion messages.

    In this last class, the class facilitator cited a source as saying that Trump rallies were geo-fenced and that at least half of the attendees of those rallies had not voted for Trump before, but were apparently lured by curiosity, etc. Then the Trump campaign targeted the phone IDs collected with pro-Trump propaganda.

    So then the audience at Trump rallies is not necessarily 100% believers, but rather also include many curious who are then narrowly targeted for conversion into Cult 45.

    Edited by dwise1, : added link for what OLLI (Osher Lifelong Learning Institutes) is

    Edited by dwise1, : "the curious" --> "many curious"


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 446 by jar, posted 02-08-2020 4:41 PM jar has not yet responded

      
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