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Author Topic:   Charismatic Chaos
ringo
Member
Posts: 18796
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 451 of 531 (871689)
02-09-2020 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 443 by Phat
02-08-2020 3:31 PM


Re: From Another Topic...
Phat writes:

God is a much bigger concept than ringo feeding people and doing his chores.

ringo writes:

Why would we need - or want - a concept bigger than that?


It would be nice to meet God someday.

I have no desire to meet the loathsome "god" that Faith worships.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by Phat, posted 02-08-2020 3:31 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 453 by Phat, posted 02-09-2020 4:09 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18796
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


(2)
Message 452 of 531 (871690)
02-09-2020 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 447 by Phat
02-09-2020 10:20 AM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
Phat writes:

I do believe that corporate worship--prayer with a group of people--unites us if but for that moment.


Interesting that you use the word "corporate" instead of "communal".

Phat writes:

And what still bothers me is your idea that the lessons can have value even if not literally coming from God.


Is calculus less important if you learn it from George instead of Jim?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by Phat, posted 02-09-2020 10:20 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14654
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 453 of 531 (871700)
02-09-2020 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 451 by ringo
02-09-2020 1:16 PM


Re: From Another Topic...
ringo writes:

I have no desire to meet the loathsome "god" that Faith worships.


What about the God (pick one) from the OT? What about Jesus Father? What about Jesus Himself? Would you be eager to meet Him or would you wave Him off and say that you were doing just fine?

I've been listening to Bart Campolo talk about how his Theology changed time and again as he struggled to adjust his beliefs to the God whom he thought he understood. Finally, he just threw the whole concept away...but he does not call himself an atheist because he feels that it sets him up as an anti theist...sometghing he does not desire to be portrayed as. Hence, he is a Humanist Chaplain.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by ringo, posted 02-09-2020 1:16 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 464 by ringo, posted 02-10-2020 10:54 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14654
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 454 of 531 (871703)
02-09-2020 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 449 by jar
02-09-2020 12:09 PM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
Phat writes:

And what still bothers me is your idea that the lessons can have value even if not literally coming from God.


jar writes:

Why Phat? Why does it bother you?

It bothers me because it suggests that God is not necessary. It's like replacing God with yourself. And I can't understand how someone can claim to be a believer when they only abstractly (and historically) believe in an unknown God. Paul himself addresses this issue in
Acts 17:23 writes:

Paul Before the Areopagus
22Then Paul stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I see that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I walked around and examined your objects of worship, I even found an altar with the inscription: To an unknown God. Therefore what you worship as something unknown, I now proclaim to you. 24The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands.…

And many people ridicule the idea of god simply and solely due to no objective evidence on which to hang their hat. The fact is that we cannot objectively verify every concept proposed philosophically and theologically to humanity. Human-Centric does not work when attempting to describe and define God. Thus...

Phat writes:

Why do you feel it is productive, necessary, and dare I say even possible to "Throw God Away?"

jar writes:

Because ALL of the evidence shows that every single God(s) or god(s) is just the product of a human imagination and that they exist only so long as there are believers that they are more than just the product of a human imagination.

That last bit was sorta word salad, but you likely made a punctuation error. To refocus, my question is how you define what a believer is? To me, a believer can actually talk with God alone in a room without concern that they are mentally deranged. They feel comfortable talking..praying...and above all listening for some feedback. And we believe though cannot objectively prove that we hear from Him. I won't even bother trying to explain that.
Phat writes:

The fact that nobody has ever been able to explain to you what a relationship with Jesus even is or how it is possible baffles and challenges me.


jar writes:

Yet the fact is that neither you nor anyone else has ever explained what that means or how it could be possible.

You are proud of that, aren't you! It validates the rationality of your choice of beliefs and at the same time invalidates Biblical Christianity as a joke. (in your mind) But you paint with a broad brush.

Facts, evidence, counts.
So again, what does it mean to you to believe and yet not dare to relate to the invisible presence in the room? Are you too adoring of logic, reason, and perceived reality?

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by jar, posted 02-09-2020 12:09 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by jar, posted 02-09-2020 4:42 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32955
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 455 of 531 (871704)
02-09-2020 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 454 by Phat
02-09-2020 4:28 PM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
Phat writes:

I won't even bother trying to explain that.

Exactly, just as you never explain how they can know they are talking with God.

Phat writes:

Human-Centric does not work when attempting to describe and define God.

Yet EVERY God or god ever described is described as human centric. They are all God(s) or god(s) in human form with human characteristics.

Phat writes:

You are proud of that, aren't you!

No Phat, I am not proud of reality. It is simply another fact.

Phat writes:

So again, what does it mean to you to believe and yet not dare to relate to the invisible presence in the room?

Yet another example of you misrepresenting reality. It is not a matter of what I dare, it is simply acknowledging that no one has ever explained how it might be possible to relate to the creator of that is, seen and unseen.

Phat writes:

It bothers me because it suggests that God is not necessary. It's like replacing God with yourself.

How is it replacing God with myself? Have I ever claimed to be God? Does not the Bible over and over say that it is humans that need to do? Who built and filled the graineries?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 454 by Phat, posted 02-09-2020 4:28 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by Phat, posted 02-09-2020 4:55 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14654
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 456 of 531 (871705)
02-09-2020 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 455 by jar
02-09-2020 4:42 PM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
Have I ever claimed to be God? Does not the Bible over and over say that it is humans that need to do? Who built and filled the granaries?
That's a good point but it still leaves me puzzled about your apparent definition of belief. Just because logic tells you that you are talking to yourself rather than with God, why not do it anyway? You may be surprised how far belief can take you. Or do you believe more in the idea of what *we* are charged to do and be and not on what God can do for us? (I think I hit that nail on the head) So why not take a leap of faith and believe in God's power rather than our responsibility? I'm not dismissing responsibility but communion with omnipotence sure helps. I cherish my realationship...even if critics say it is all in my imagination. I think they just dont understand it. You claim that you believe that God relates to everybody on equal terms, but Im not convinced. Im not so special nor are you so dense.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by jar, posted 02-09-2020 4:42 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 457 by jar, posted 02-09-2020 8:40 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32955
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 457 of 531 (871710)
02-09-2020 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 456 by Phat
02-09-2020 4:55 PM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
Phat writes:

I'm not dismissing responsibility but communion with omnipotence sure helps.

And yet ...

You keep claiming something Phat but never present any support or evidence for the claim.

Phat writes:

So why not take a leap of faith and believe in God's power rather than our responsibility?

Because the Bible repeatedly says that it is our responsibility.

There is evidence of humans doing stuff but no evidence of God doing stuff.

It really is that simple. We are charged to be stewards of the Earth and all its inhabitants.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by Phat, posted 02-09-2020 4:55 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by GDR, posted 02-10-2020 2:15 AM jar has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 8 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 458 of 531 (871711)
02-10-2020 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 457 by jar
02-09-2020 8:40 PM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
jar writes:

There is evidence of humans doing stuff but no evidence of God doing stuff.

It really is that simple. We are charged to be stewards of the Earth and all its inhabitants.


Out of curiosity jar are you a deist or a theist?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by jar, posted 02-09-2020 8:40 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 459 by jar, posted 02-10-2020 7:39 AM GDR has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32955
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


(3)
Message 459 of 531 (871712)
02-10-2020 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 458 by GDR
02-10-2020 2:15 AM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
LOL

I'm an an Episcopalian.

Edited by jar, : applin spallin


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by GDR, posted 02-10-2020 2:15 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 460 by Phat, posted 02-10-2020 8:41 AM jar has responded
 Message 462 by GDR, posted 02-10-2020 10:13 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14654
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 460 of 531 (871713)
02-10-2020 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 459 by jar
02-10-2020 7:39 AM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
Let's hold him to that, Greg. Here is one of their slogan cards:

jar writes:

It is not a matter of what I dare, it is simply acknowledging that no one has ever explained how it might be possible to relate to the creator of all that is, seen and unseen.

Who wrote the Psalms? Have you ever read the Bible, jar? Your own church tells you to do the following:
quote:
Turn: Pause, listen and choose to follow Jesus
Learn: Reflect on Scripture each day, especially on Jesus’ life & teachings
Pray: Dwell intentionally with God each day
Worship: Gather in community weekly to thank, praise, & dwell with God
Bless: Share faith and unselfishly give and serve
Go: Cross boundaries listen deeply, & live like Jesus
Rest: Receive the gift of God’s Grace, peace, & restoration

You ask me how would I know its God? Or How would I know it is Jesus?

Are not the very Psalms themselves an explanation of how one lyricist relates to this God? This Creator of all seen and unseen?

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : trying to fix broken quote. Seems this cloud server does not allow that

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by jar, posted 02-10-2020 7:39 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 461 by jar, posted 02-10-2020 8:55 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32955
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 461 of 531 (871715)
02-10-2020 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 460 by Phat
02-10-2020 8:41 AM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
Fortunately an Episcopalian does not have to check his brain at the door and in general they also know how to read.

You could learn from that.

Have I ever mentioned Jesus teachings?

Have I ever suggested following what Jesus said we should do?

Have I ever mentioned the fact the one of the purposes of the BCP is to bring worship into the house beyond some weekly event and make it part of the daily life?

Learn to think Phat.

Slogan cards are for the little minds.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by Phat, posted 02-10-2020 8:41 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by Phat, posted 02-10-2020 2:47 PM jar has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 8 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 462 of 531 (871716)
02-10-2020 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 459 by jar
02-10-2020 7:39 AM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
You said this.
jar writes:

There is evidence of humans doing stuff but no evidence of God doing stuff.

It really is that simple. We are charged to be stewards of the Earth and all its inhabitants.

So I asked if you were a deist or a theist, and you simply said:

jar writes:

I'm an an Episcopalian.


I'm an Anglican and we both know that there is a wide variety of beliefs within our denomination. It seems to me that with your first statement it sounds as if you feel that God has simply left us to run the show and that there is now no connection between God and this world. Do you believe that there is a Holy Spirit as in the still small voice of God? Just curious.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by jar, posted 02-10-2020 7:39 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 463 by jar, posted 02-10-2020 10:40 AM GDR has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32955
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 463 of 531 (871717)
02-10-2020 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 462 by GDR
02-10-2020 10:13 AM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
GDR writes:

It seems to me that with your first statement it sounds as if you feel that God has simply left us to run the show and that there is now no connection between God and this world.

I don't see anyway to ever know if God is active in the world or not. It's very possible that God could influence a doctor to do one more test or try one more thing that results in a life saved or that God could effect the way things happened but even if that happened it would not be evidence of God doing anything. At best it could be called unknown or inexplicable or coincidence or surprising.

GDR writes:

Do you believe that there is a Holy Spirit as in the still small voice of God?

Again, I see absolutely no way to take that beyond some personal belief not founded on any evidence or to determine who that small voice might be other than testing the content against logic, reason and reality. In that case the actual source of the voice is irrelevant.

We can all have our personal beliefs but that is all that they are and so beliefs are pretty much irrelevant as well.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by GDR, posted 02-10-2020 10:13 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 465 by GDR, posted 02-10-2020 11:15 AM jar has responded
 Message 472 by GDR, posted 02-10-2020 8:05 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18796
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 464 of 531 (871718)
02-10-2020 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 453 by Phat
02-09-2020 4:09 PM


Re: From Another Topic...
Phat writes:

What about the God (pick one) from the OT? What about Jesus Father? What about Jesus Himself?


What if I make you the same offer? You can meet a random person; he might be a billionaire philanthropist who adopts you - or a serial killer, or a whiny little loser. Would you jump at the chance of meeting him?

Phat writes:

What about Jesus Himself? Would you be eager to meet Him or would you wave Him off and say that you were doing just fine?


There are plenty of people in the world who are as "nice" as Jesus. I don't have any need to meet every one of them.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by Phat, posted 02-09-2020 4:09 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 8 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 465 of 531 (871719)
02-10-2020 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 463 by jar
02-10-2020 10:40 AM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
jar writes:

Again, I see absolutely no way to take that beyond some personal belief not founded on any evidence or to determine who that small voice might be other than testing the content against logic, reason and reality.

OK, but I'm asking what it is that you believe.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by jar, posted 02-10-2020 10:40 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 466 by jar, posted 02-10-2020 11:48 AM GDR has responded

  
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