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Author Topic:   Charismatic Chaos
ringo
Member
Posts: 17926
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 481 of 531 (871753)
02-11-2020 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 470 by Phat
02-10-2020 2:47 PM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
Phat writes:

... you--unique among Christians we know--cant simply accept what many others accept without not only questioning it but trashing it.


Why can't you accept Mormonism or Islam without questioning them?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Phat, posted 02-10-2020 2:47 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5075
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 482 of 531 (871754)
02-11-2020 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 477 by jar
02-11-2020 8:11 AM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
jar writes:

Once again you simply show your inability to read or to retain what you read longer than 15 seconds.

I am a believer, an Episcopalian and I am familiar with the "I believes".

But all that is irrelevant. Regardless of who we believe the source might be we are charged to test the content against logic, reason and reality.

Remember all the times I have discussed Genesis 18 here?


The I believes from the creed:
I believe in the resurrection of the body.
You said somewhere along the line that you don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus

I believe in the Holy Ghost
You say you don't believe that.

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck it is probably...you know the rest.

AS Phat pointed out you fit the definition of an agnostic but you call yourself an Episcopalian.

Let's just settle on an agnostic Episcopalian.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by jar, posted 02-11-2020 8:11 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by jar, posted 02-11-2020 1:29 PM GDR has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32167
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 483 of 531 (871755)
02-11-2020 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 482 by GDR
02-11-2020 12:29 PM


feel all better now?
You said somewhere along the line that you don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus

No, I say it doesn't matter if it happened or not.

You say you don't believe that

No, I say that there is no evidence of such a thing and no way to determine if there is such a thing.

Really GDR, learn to read; it's not all that hard.

Honestly, I do not just call myself an Episcopalian but I am also registered as an Episcopalian and even have my name on the wall of an Episcopal chapel.

You can settle on whatever fool thing makes you feel good but it has no basis in truth or reality.

Edited by jar, : missed it by ...


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by GDR, posted 02-11-2020 12:29 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 484 by dwise1, posted 02-11-2020 2:30 PM jar has not yet responded
 Message 485 by GDR, posted 02-12-2020 2:29 AM jar has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3975
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 484 of 531 (871756)
02-11-2020 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 483 by jar
02-11-2020 1:29 PM


Re: feel all better now?
GDR writes:

You said somewhere along the line that you don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus


No, I say it doesn't matter if it happened or not.

Back on CompuServe in the late 80's in the Religion Forum's "SCIENCE & RELIGION" Section (where the creationism discussions were), there was a crazed Christian named "Suds". He claimed to be a mathematician who invented Gray Code (though Frank Gray died two decades prior in 1969) and couldn't work anymore after suffering a stroke. He promoted odd forms of word magick and had even claimed that since Hamurabi predated Moses by centuries, that meant that Hamurabi had copied his code from Moses.

But Suds did come up one very good point: It is not important whether the claims of Christianity are true or not, only that people believe that they are true. The history of Western Civilization for the past two millennia was based almost entirely on belief in Christianity, not on whether there was any truth at all to Christianity.

Like Rick Perry said, even a broken clock is right once a day.
(Perry succeeded G.W. Bush as Governor of Texas, which has led Texans to refer to Bush as "the smart one.")


This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by jar, posted 02-11-2020 1:29 PM jar has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5075
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 485 of 531 (871764)
02-12-2020 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 483 by jar
02-11-2020 1:29 PM


Re: feel all better now?
jar writes:

No, I say it doesn't matter if it happened or not.

That wasn't the point. And the question you won't answer is do you believe it happened or not.

jar writes:

No, I say that there is no evidence of such a thing and no way to determine if there is such a thing.

and still you are afraid to commit to any belief.

jar writes:

Really GDR, learn to read; it's not all that hard.

I can read your obfuscation and evasion quite clearly.

jar writes:

Honestly, I do not just call myself an Episcopalian but I am also registered as an Episcopalian and even have my name on the wall of an Episcopal chapel.

No problem there, you just can't commit to their beliefs.

jar writes:

You can settle on whatever fool thing makes you feel good but it has no basis in truth or reality.

Well you can't settle on anything at all, and yet you treat those that are not afraid to stand up for their beliefs with condescending and arrogant comments.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by jar, posted 02-11-2020 1:29 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 486 by jar, posted 02-12-2020 7:02 AM GDR has responded
 Message 491 by ringo, posted 02-12-2020 2:14 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32167
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 486 of 531 (871768)
02-12-2020 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 485 by GDR
02-12-2020 2:29 AM


Re: feel all better now?
Have I told you that I am an Episcopalian?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 485 by GDR, posted 02-12-2020 2:29 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 487 by GDR, posted 02-12-2020 10:59 AM jar has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5075
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 487 of 531 (871778)
02-12-2020 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 486 by jar
02-12-2020 7:02 AM


Re: feel all better now?
jar writes:

Have I told you that I am an Episcopalian?

I don't question that, but you can't even acknowledge that you believe basic Episcopalian doctrine. You're an Episcopalian by membership but by your statements you're agnostic by belief.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 486 by jar, posted 02-12-2020 7:02 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 488 by jar, posted 02-12-2020 12:14 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 490 by Phat, posted 02-12-2020 2:12 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32167
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 488 of 531 (871779)
02-12-2020 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 487 by GDR
02-12-2020 10:59 AM


Re: feel all better now?
Learn to read.

I am an Episcopalian. That means I ascribe to the basic doctrines of the Episcopal Church including the "I believes".

It really isn't that hard to understand.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 487 by GDR, posted 02-12-2020 10:59 AM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 489 by Phat, posted 02-12-2020 1:59 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 489 of 531 (871781)
02-12-2020 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 488 by jar
02-12-2020 12:14 PM


Re: feel all better now?
I think what he (or I) is trying to say is that to you, the "I believes" are not direct belief in God's influence but in your charge. Would you not agree that David in the Psalms seemed to have a relationship with God as he understood Him and not in his charge and duty exclusively. You essentially have eliminated the possibility (or desire) of interaction.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 488 by jar, posted 02-12-2020 12:14 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 495 by jar, posted 02-12-2020 6:50 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 490 of 531 (871782)
02-12-2020 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 487 by GDR
02-12-2020 10:59 AM


Re: feel all better now?
They are quite liberal. Here are two cartoons from an Episcopalian humor page. the first one sounds like jar:


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 487 by GDR, posted 02-12-2020 10:59 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17926
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 491 of 531 (871783)
02-12-2020 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 485 by GDR
02-12-2020 2:29 AM


Re: feel all better now?
GDR writes:

... you just can't commit to their beliefs.


How can you commit to beliefs when there is nothing to back them up? It's pretty much a random choice what you believe - which is why most people believe what they learned as children. Committing to a belief is heading in the direction of fanaticism.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 485 by GDR, posted 02-12-2020 2:29 AM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 492 by Phat, posted 02-12-2020 2:21 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 492 of 531 (871785)
02-12-2020 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 491 by ringo
02-12-2020 2:14 PM


Re: feel all better now?
I guess I'm somewhere between fanaticism and skepticism. I did find your honest apologist in Bart Campolo. Ironically, he is everything my evangelical Christian friends would despise, but I trust him. I know you cant hear audio at the Saskatch Library, but he had me on his podcast. (my voice, anyway)

Ironic that he left the Faith and is a secular humanist Chaplain. I am having a 30-minute consultation with him tonite so I will get a better feel for his integrity.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 491 by ringo, posted 02-12-2020 2:14 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 493 by ringo, posted 02-12-2020 2:23 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17926
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 493 of 531 (871786)
02-12-2020 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 492 by Phat
02-12-2020 2:21 PM


Re: feel all better now?
Phat writes:

I did find your honest apologist in Bart Campolo.


You didn't let us test his honesty.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 492 by Phat, posted 02-12-2020 2:21 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 494 by Phat, posted 02-12-2020 5:21 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 494 of 531 (871804)
02-12-2020 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 493 by ringo
02-12-2020 2:23 PM


Re: feel all better now?
If you figure a way to do it, I would encourage you to follow through. Just how will we test him?

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 493 by ringo, posted 02-12-2020 2:23 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 497 by ringo, posted 02-13-2020 10:45 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32167
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 495 of 531 (871810)
02-12-2020 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 489 by Phat
02-12-2020 1:59 PM


Re: feel all better now?
Phat writes:

You essentially have eliminated the possibility (or desire) of interaction.

Still the total failure to demonstrate that you can read or understand or retain.

I have eliminated nothing but rather keep asking for someone to explain how interaction might be possible or even identifiable.

Phat writes:

I think what he (or I) is trying to say is that to you, the "I believes" are not direct belief in God's influence but in your charge.

LOL

He is free to think any fool thing he wants. Go read the "I believes" and try to fit what is actually written into what the above quote says. It's called the Apostles' Creed.

The Apostles' Creed

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.

Amen.

There is nothing in there related to God's influence or in what we are charged to do.

Basics Phat, these are really very basic parts of Christianity.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by Phat, posted 02-12-2020 1:59 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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