Define faith?

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Gee, what a lovely first post.

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There's nothing here of any substance, only hatred and stupidity, so I won't reply point to point.

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However, I would like to point out for readers with any intelligence that the "propaganda" that jdean33442 accuses me of using is a study from the Barna Research group, a respected Christian research company. From their website:

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http://www.barna.org/cgi-bin/PageAboutBarna.asp

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I am not going to explain to you why the site is propaganda. The other lesser intelligent beings I associate with have all concurred with me, it is propaganda.The research is geared toward finding out what religious group has the higher divorce rate. That is why it is not valid data for a general statistic about divorce rate. It states "born-again christians" have a high divorce rate. Did they get divorced as atheistists and agnostics or born-agains? It doesn't specify.The greatest piece of information from that lovely divorce reform site states Asians have an extremely low divorce rate. That statistic completely blows your "women as equals" garbage out of the water. Asian cultures treat women like lesser beings. You contradict yourself with every post. I just don't know why i'm bothering to point it out.

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Originally posted by schrafinator:

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Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
Schraf

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This practical word of the gospel is hard to take. I agree. I have struggled with who I am at recently and have had to hear from human faces of Christ.

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How do you think Christ felt when he gradually realized who he was? I bet he had laid eyes on some potential wives or may have wanted to become Nazereth's best carpenter. But at the same time he gradually found out who he was and what his call was. It is no different for us. We all take up our cross and do it for what is on the other side of it. It goes against everything natural that is in us and yet the word in our hearts is sufficent to direct us if we chose to listen.

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I agree it is an 'icky' gospel. I have personally experienced the ick. I am also experiencing the victory on the other side of the cross also. If this message did not offend you there would be somethign wrong with you. It offended me too.

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[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 01-21-2003]

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Individual choices I have no problem with, TB, but you went much farther than that. You said that the way to a happy home life, the best way, the ONLY way, was that women should submit to men and each should perform their gender roles.

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This is demonstrably not the case if you look at the high divorce statistics of strict christian marriages where the marriage is not an equal partership.

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Your personal experience might be great, but in my experience, I grew up in a home where my parents, particularly my mother, were miserable in their strict gender roles.

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I have chosen a life where my wants and needs are just as important as my husband's wants and needs. We have EACH sacrificed parts of our own desires in our lives to help the other achieve their goals. For example, I have been working outside of my field in a state where I wouldn't normally want to live to support my husband for the last 5 years while he earns a PhD (so don't you dare tell me, newbie, that I am selfish and don't make sacrifices in my marriage. You don't know what the hell you are talking about. Sorry TB, had to shout over to the insulting new guy for a second).

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I just cannot imagine why any man would want to marry a child instead of an adult, equal woman.

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According to your previous posts on you are submitting to your husband and being his slave? I'm confused. Which is it? You are a total free equal person or you are a slave dog of man?Apparently, I must be of little worth since I have not posted before. I apologize for not conforming. Could you please post your Caste system. I am curious to see where my place is.Cordially,Kiss Kiss Hug Hug

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Originally posted by Tranquility Base:

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The Bible reveals a God that relates within himself and with mankind just as people interact within families and communities: fatherhood, brotherhood and 'marriage' (Christ to the church). The Quran reveals primarily a legalistic God. The Biblical God reveals that legalism operates only when grace is taken for granted. In other words when we respond in right attitude we automatically live in a godly manner. .

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(My emphasis.) This is not in fact, correct TB.Taken from http://www.arabicbible.com/islam/sinsalv.htm : Besides, in deciding between competing claims, why should a third party value grace above works?

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But ultimately the evidence comes from experience

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For sure. Despite a mildly Christian upbringing my experience is of enjoying bible stories but not believing the dogma, ever since first forming an opinion at age 5 or 6. A militant atheist at 11, I later realised that it might be wrong to reject out of hand a belief held by so many. One time about age 15 I sincerely asked Jesus if he would come into my life. Nothing happened, which was very disappointing at the time, but led quite naturally back to atheism. Since that too can be described as a religious position, agnosticism now seems best.Do you accept that this experience has a validity equal to that of your own?------------------
Then HE said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart, to believe all that the prophets have spoken. Luke 24 v 25

Schraf Somehting I have noticed about 'born-again' churches, both in the US and here in Australia, is that they often also proclaim a 'prosperity' or 'name it and claim it' teaching. Whilst I would class my church within the renewal category the direction we believe God has taken us is down an 'accountability' direction and this has distanced us from 'prosperity doctrine' churches.What I am saying is that a lot of 'born agains' have slipped into a 'self-mode' which may have led to the high divorce rates. These self-based teachings bypass the practcal daily aspects of the cross I have been talking about IMO. In short I do not believe renewal churches are, as a whole, teaching truly accountable living. I hope that explains why this data is not a conundrum for me. The cross was 'ick' to Christ too. He wept tears of blood. We, as He did, do it for the 'joy set before us'. Easily said of course. Christ said 'take up your cross'. Does that really mean 'go to India' or does it actaully mean 'live out your identity not your fantasy'?[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 01-22-2003]

ChavalonDespite your reference Islam is overwhelmingly legalistic.For me creation, life, relationships and my interactons with Christ and his written word and the church speak to me of the Christian God as being real.Your experience is equally valid.I still beleive you will find the Christian God if you seek God.[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 01-22-2003]

There are two specific points I would like you to address, actually.1) The Southern Baptists are the largest Protestant denomination in the US. They also have the highest divorce rate among all religious groups, and they have a "submissive women" policy, and are in general very conservative. I don't think that the SB are classified with the Born Agains, so what about them?What I keep coming up against is the fact that you claimed that when the woman submits to the will of the man in a marriage, everything is so much better for the family, and even for her (!). I showed you good, valid statistics in which the opposite is actually the case, at least for the survival of the marriage.Your "prosperity" and "accountability" examples seem very much like post hoc reasoning to me, although it might not be the case. If you want to narrow your claim, then that's fine, but you actually haven't come out and done so.2) Atheists and Agnostics, along with Catholics and Lutherans, have a low divorce rate; below the US national average. These numbers would seem to indicate that people with less-oppressive, rigid roles required by their religion, and people with no religious inclinations at all, have more sucessful marriages.Even if you can discount the Southern Baptists as a "prosperity" doctrine, you can't deny the lower divorce rate of Atheists and Agnostics.You have made the claim that the rigid role way is better, but you have yet to demonstrate it.

Don't feed the troll.

SchrafWhat I will say is that when men are living accountably as men and women are living accountably as women families work. I can cite no statistics to back this up. Rather, I believe this is the grassroots key to life for families (as indeed it always has been).

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What I will say is that when men are living accountably as men and women are living accountably as women families work.

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But what does "men acting accountably" and "women acting accountably" actually mean?If what you mean is "families work when the male is the head of the family and the female is submissive to him", this is demonstrably not the case. Families don't work when strict gender roles and a parent/child-type relationship are required.You made the explicit claim that this is "God's way" and that it works better. You continue to make the claim in spite of good evidence to the contrary....and you call yourself a scientist!

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I can cite no statistics to back this up.

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Well then, you have no basis to make the claim. Only wishful thinking.I am wondering why you haven't retracted the claim?

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Rather, I believe this is the grassroots key to life for families (as indeed it always has been).

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More claims with no substance.

An impressively sweeping ipse dixit! Why does this claim have relevance? If I seek Allah, will I find Him? If I seek nirvana, will I find it?If you think that only the Christian God can be found, those statements seem to be mutually contradictory, since my experience was precisely of seeking and not finding.There is not the slightest reason for me to question the validity of your experience, only the claim that it is more true that other widely accepted beliefs.

Oh, and on the subject of experience... ...this is entirely wrong. In fact the word pathological comes to mind.My experience? Ten years of monogamous partnership, father of 2 kids. Would you mind commenting on the personal experience that has gone into forming your views?------------------
Then HE said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart, to believe all that the prophets have spoken. Luke 24 v 25[This message has been edited by Chavalon, 01-24-2003]

Hey Shraf, the funny thing about the truth is that it's never necessary to prove it. Your a smart girl, but it appears that you pick an ideology and then try to find facts that support it, rather than forming your idealogy around the facts. I'm not claiming to know you...I'm only stating what it looks like from an outside perspective based on the posts I have read. Without taking a combative approach, why not tell us what you believe and why you believe it. This forum is a great sounding board filled with a gammut of diverse ideologies...perhaps you'll learn something that'll change your mind or maybe you'll find that the discussions only strengthen your convictions. I believe you're much smarter than the MTV "we are the world" catchphrase mentality that you've shown us thus far.

Ephesians 5:21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[2] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-- 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[3] 32This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.Verse 21 says submit one to another. The rest goes on and would answer your question "But what does "men acting accountably" and "women acting accountably" actually mean?"------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

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Hey Shraf, the funny thing about the truth is that it's never necessary to prove it.

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That depends upon what you mean by "truth", doesn't it?

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Your a smart girl,

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Thank you, although it seems strange to be called a "girl" at age 35.

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but it appears that you pick an ideology and then try to find facts that support it, rather than forming your idealogy around the facts.

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Um, no.I will agree that I am a fairly idealistic person. I have a definite idea of how I'd like the world to be, and I certainly have ideals toward which I strive in my own life, personally.However, I do not see where I am defending some ideology despite the facts. Could you provide som examples of what you mean?

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I'm not claiming to know you...I'm only stating what it looks like from an outside perspective based on the posts I have read.

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I am sorry that I have come across this way, but I contend that perhaps you are not being fair. I am quite willing to change my views in light of compelling evidence.

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Without taking a combative approach, why not tell us what you believe and why you believe it.

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I generally start out quite non-combative, although I am not one to sugar coat. I tend to write analytically and seriously. Most people write in a similar manner here.

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This forum is a great sounding board filled with a gammut of diverse ideologies...perhaps you'll learn something that'll change your mind or maybe you'll find that the discussions only strengthen your convictions.

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This has been my experience.

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I believe you're much smarter than the MTV "we are the world" catchphrase mentality that you've shown us thus far.

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Hmmm.Examples of what you mean?

Sorry, I can't help but get hung up on the "wives should submit to their husbands in everything." thing.How is a wife any different than a slave, or a lap dog, then?A wife, logically, has no free will, as her will is always subject to domination by her husband's will.That is disgusting.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-27-2003][This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-27-2003]