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Author Topic:   Assumptions about faith
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 54 (428387)
10-16-2007 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Stile
10-16-2007 9:40 AM


Re: Sounds a bit like the same thing
I think the real question is whether or not someone is willing to consider everything they hold as a belief might be wrong.
That, of course would, include even whether or not GOD exists.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Stile, posted 10-16-2007 9:40 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Stile, posted 10-16-2007 10:10 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 8 of 54 (428396)
10-16-2007 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Stile
10-16-2007 10:10 AM


Re: Sounds a bit like the same thing
Faith is a slightly different position than just hope, a more positive one. I would not call it as much arrogance as simply a higher degree of confidence.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Stile, posted 10-16-2007 10:10 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Stile, posted 10-16-2007 10:53 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 54 (428409)
10-16-2007 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Stile
10-16-2007 10:53 AM


Re: Sounds a bit like the same thing
I don't understand. Hope is positive, and can range from slightly positive, to extremely positive.
I was using "positive" as an indicator of confidence level. Faith is more than simply the hope that something is true, it is the belief that it is true.
But yes, even with faith there is always tentativity, and honesty demands that you recognize that if something is shown to be false, you will accept it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Stile, posted 10-16-2007 10:53 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by bluegenes, posted 10-16-2007 2:47 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 54 (428496)
10-16-2007 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by bluegenes
10-16-2007 2:47 PM


Re: Sounds a bit like the same thing
Doubt is a fine word, and something everyone should have about everything, including the existence of God.
And sure my God is falsifiable, just not during this life.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by bluegenes, posted 10-16-2007 2:47 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by bluegenes, posted 10-17-2007 7:20 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 16 of 54 (428689)
10-17-2007 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by bluegenes
10-17-2007 7:20 AM


Re: Sounds a bit like the same thing
You'll get a shock when you die, and Krishna is sitting on his throne in front of you, telling you that you've got to come back here for another round as an untouchable.
That is certainly possible.
But more likely is that if there is a GOD, then all the Gods we have created like Jesus or the Christian God or the Jewish God or Allah or Krishna or Ganesh are all wrong.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by bluegenes, posted 10-17-2007 7:20 AM bluegenes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-17-2007 11:43 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 18 of 54 (428714)
10-17-2007 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by New Cat's Eye
10-17-2007 11:43 AM


Re: Sounds a bit like the same thing
Its lines like these that make people question your Christianity.
You say you truly are a Christian, but that we created Jesus and thut that creation is most likely wrong in its description.
It just seems like you're contradicting yourself.
We create Maps.
We need to remember that we are simply manipulating symbols, Maps, and that our maps are NOT the reality, the Territory. Our Maps, for example Christianity, will be accurate in some places, close in others and down right wrong in some.
It doesn't matter what we believe, the reality will turn out to be what it is.
We have a Map we call Jesus. It is based on almost no evidence and a few, often contradictory descriptions written by folk, some of whom never even met the person. At best we may have some form of "Veronica's Veil", a somewhat smudged imprint of a real live person, but it can never be more than simply a caricature, a cartoon impression of a very complex person.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-17-2007 11:43 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 28 of 54 (428967)
10-18-2007 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Stile
10-18-2007 9:21 AM


Two points.
If you'd lose your faith, then your faith in Christianity seems on par with a YEC's faith, to me.
Let's stop for just a second if you will.
Look at two positions, A & B.
In both, there is a strongly held belief, a Faith, in some particular item or assertion.
In each case evidence is presented that refutes the item of Faith.
In the first of the two, when the new evidence is brought forward person A says "Yep, point taken. I will abandon that item of Faith."
In the second, when the new evidence is brought forward person B says "Nope, not convinced. If what you say is true then I would have to abandon my belief and I will not do that."
Are those two reactions equivalent?
The second issue has to do with definitions.
Christianity is based on a documented set of beliefs, with a minimal core set being contained in the Nicene Creed.
One possibly falsifiable part of the Nicene Creed is the claim that Jesus rose from the Dead. If it was somehow possible to prove that Jesus did not rise from the dead, then that would certainly falsify a strongly held belief and one of the defining items of Christianity.
The question then is "How would Christians address that issue?"
They could
  • deny the evidence.
  • revise the definition.
  • abandon the belief.
Are there other options?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Stile, posted 10-18-2007 9:21 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Stile, posted 10-18-2007 10:18 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 40 of 54 (429055)
10-18-2007 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by itrownot
10-18-2007 1:37 PM


On Grace and Faith
Whatever do you mean by "if grace is truly grace, then faith doesn't enter into it"?
Faith is irrelevant to the existence of Grace. The idea of Grace is that God forgives. That no man starts out damned. It's a done deal.
The only question is whether you believe that or not. That is where Faith comes in. Do you believe in Grace?
Grace exists regardless of whether or not you have Faith in the fact.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by itrownot, posted 10-18-2007 1:37 PM itrownot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by itrownot, posted 10-18-2007 2:01 PM jar has not replied

  
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