Assumptions about faith

good morning, ringo. In case you haven't noticed, I posted an apology to you this morning for unleashing my trirade a few hours ago on gen's thread, so I won't repeat that here. I just was reading your musing re Eph 2:8 and would like to suggest that you simply parse the sentence carefully for its true meaning. you may come to appreciate as i did that it means this: it is only by the grace of God that we are able to receive our salvation as a result of our faith in Jesus. (This special arrangement whereby we may be saved is God's extraordinary gift to us...the new testament in his (Jesus's) blood--we didn't merit such kind treatment, but there it is anyway. It's that simple. It's not a doctrine per se, it's the Gospel according to Paul, if you will.) Edited by itrownot, : Edited for clarity and a typo.

I wasn't expecting you to expect me to define what I meant by the "true meaning" of a sentence, ringo, for pete's sake! I suppose that was my error, though. In any event, you can call it a sale as opposed to a gift if you like. I only wanted to point out that the verse itself is not all that difficult to fathom so long as you parse it out.Grace and faith are entirely independent entities here, IMO, so, although I hesitate to assume anything with you, it seems we agree on that point.

Whatever do you mean by "if grace is truly grace, then faith doesn't enter into it"? You don't seem to fully understand the construct: a measure of divine grace was necessary in order that we might be saved by our faith (as opposed to some other means, if any). God exercised this measure of grace. You seem to be wholly offended that God didn't simply wave a wand over you to make you pure. (This seems to me very immature thinking on your part.) The fact that you must exercise faith as a condition of your salvation does not diminish the measure of grace that was afforded to you by one iota. You are forgetting or ignoring the fact that, as a beneficary of this plan of salvation, you have been shown unmerited favor by God. This is "truly unmerited favor", shall we say, thus it as is "truly grace" as it can be.

BTW, I'm not saying that "grace is a sale" either, as was just demonstrated in my previous post. That's something you brought up by your own convoluted (read: twisted) logic. You say we need to find a meaning for "through faith," but I suggest you come up for air and look closer to the surface--it's not to be found "a few fathoms deeper," as you suggest. Again, just parse the sentence. Tthere's no great mystery to it at all, so quit making it so difficult!

"True" Christian, I have already explained what I believe is meant by "for by grace are ye saved through faith." I doubt that you and I would ever agree on how grace works beyond that. I believe God has shown me grace, and, of course, that God shows grace to others as well. Beyond that, I think there exists plenty of dogma to go around for anyone who desires to partake of it. No offense intended, but you asked me.

You know, ringo, I honestly feel that you are merely acting the part on me. Are you a contrarian or something? I mean no disrespect by that, but you just refuse to deal in the substance of things. It's always like, "no, you're the one whose doing that." I feel like I'm in the old Abbot & Costello bit "Who's on first", and it's almost as comical, too (but nly to a point). Seriously, I'm beginning to question your sincerity.
You gotta help me out on that score--I'm not into buffoonery or clowning around for hours at a time.Now you've accused me, among other things, of ignoring the fact that I have been shown unmerited favor by God, and then you proceed to restate the very point I made in my previous post. Can you understand my frustration? Are you only just toying with me?

Listen, ringo, for the third time (I think it is): It was more than apparent that you did not understand Ephesians 2:8, so I offered to edify you on it. No big deal, at least one would have hoped so, but not so with you. How ironic...you're debating grace, yet you are entirely ungracious to someone who only wanted to help you to understand a passage in which you were obviously over your head. What I offered you was not "assumptions of faith to be swallowed," but rather, a simple explanation for a slightly more complicated sentence construct that you were thoroughly confused about, by your own admission. Amazing. Anyway, you're welcome for the input.

I'm not into dogma, either, as I've already said, I think, nor do I parrot it. I frankly don't need to serve some kind of apprenticeship either. I have searched things out thusfar in my own way, and I've paid my dues for it, too.Unfortunately, I can't continue on line for now, as I am already late for an appointment, but I do feel as though you're beginning to come across better now, and I look forward to hearing more from you. Thanks.