I wasn't expecting you to expect me to define what I meant by the "true meaning" of a sentence, ringo, for pete's sake! I suppose that was my error, though. In any event, you can call it a sale as opposed to a gift if you like. I only wanted to point out that the verse itself is not all that difficult to fathom so long as you parse it out.
Grace and faith are entirely independent entities here, IMO, so, although I hesitate to assume anything with you, it seems we agree on that point.
You'd consider that important? More or less improtant that him taking a shit?
You feel you are in a position to determine whether or not something which God said is worth listening to?
The foundation of YEC is that this one sentence that Jesus said was written down correctly and outweighs the 99.99% of the rest of the stuff he said.
So, consider this exchange lost to history:
Mark: Hey, Jesus, did you mean creation literally took six days? Jesus: Well, not "days" like a 24 hour day. It's an allegory. Mark: What's an allegory? Jesus: It's like a parable, a story to express a concept. It's not to be taken literally. Mark: Oh, cuz me and the other guys thought you meant 6 actual days. Jesus: No. That'd be crazy. Hey, are you writing this down? Mark: Nah, I'll remember to write it down later. Jesus: Be sure that you do. Mark: Right-o Chief. Hey, pass the wine.
Whatever do you mean by "if grace is truly grace, then faith doesn't enter into it"? You don't seem to fully understand the construct: a measure of divine grace was necessary in order that we might be saved by our faith (as opposed to some other means, if any). God exercised this measure of grace. You seem to be wholly offended that God didn't simply wave a wand over you to make you pure. (This seems to me very immature thinking on your part.) The fact that you must exercise faith as a condition of your salvation does not diminish the measure of grace that was afforded to you by one iota. You are forgetting or ignoring the fact that, as a beneficary of this plan of salvation, you have been shown unmerited favor by God. This is "truly unmerited favor", shall we say, thus it as is "truly grace" as it can be.
BTW, I'm not saying that "grace is a sale" either, as was just demonstrated in my previous post. That's something you brought up by your own convoluted (read: twisted) logic. You say we need to find a meaning for "through faith," but I suggest you come up for air and look closer to the surface--it's not to be found "a few fathoms deeper," as you suggest. Again, just parse the sentence. Tthere's no great mystery to it at all, so quit making it so difficult!
You seem to be wholly offended that God didn't simply wave a wand over you to make you pure.
No, I'm saying that that's exactly what He did do: He made us all pure. By grace, for no particular reason, He pre-forgave us for everything we do wrong. It's our responsibility to do as little wrong as possible and to try to fix what we do do wrong, for our own sake and for our neighbours' sake - not for His sake.
The fact that you must exercise faith as a condition of your salvation does not diminish the measure of grace that was afforded to you by one iota.
Putting any kind of condition on grace would nullify it completely.
You are forgetting or ignoring the fact that, as a beneficary of this plan of salvation, you have been shown unmerited favor by God.
Actually, you're the one who's ignoring that. We have been shown unmerited favour by God - unmerited by our actions and unmerited by our faith.
"True" Christian, I have already explained what I believe is meant by "for by grace are ye saved through faith." I doubt that you and I would ever agree on how grace works beyond that. I believe God has shown me grace, and, of course, that God shows grace to others as well. Beyond that, I think there exists plenty of dogma to go around for anyone who desires to partake of it. No offense intended, but you asked me.
You know, ringo, I honestly feel that you are merely acting the part on me. Are you a contrarian or something? I mean no disrespect by that, but you just refuse to deal in the substance of things. It's always like, "no, you're the one whose doing that." I feel like I'm in the old Abbot & Costello bit "Who's on first", and it's almost as comical, too (but nly to a point). Seriously, I'm beginning to question your sincerity. You gotta help me out on that score--I'm not into buffoonery or clowning around for hours at a time.
Now you've accused me, among other things, of ignoring the fact that I have been shown unmerited favor by God, and then you proceed to restate the very point I made in my previous post. Can you understand my frustration? Are you only just toying with me?