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Author Topic:   Assumptions about faith
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 599 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 31 of 54 (429013)
10-18-2007 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by New Cat's Eye
10-17-2007 11:43 AM


The Jesus of the Bible ain't the real Jesus
You say you truly are a Christian, but that we created Jesus...

The Jesus of the Bible is a not "real".

The Bible records only some of what Jesus said or did, and even then, it was recorded differently by different people.

To hold that the Jesus of the Bible is the sum total of the man is ridiculous.

The Bible never mentions Jesus taking a dump. Son of God or no, I'm betting he had to relieve himself at least once.

The Bible records only SOME of what Jesus said. Were the rest of his words just completely worthless? Did he not say ANYTHING to any of the other apostles?

The YECs believe in Biblical literalism because they hold that Jesus was God, that Jesus was inerrant, and that Jesus said that the writings of Moses were correct.

But, if Jesus was divine and inerrant, then EVERY SINGLE THING he ever said was important. Where is the 99.99% of the things he did and said?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-17-2007 11:43 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-18-2007 12:21 PM Nuggin has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16350
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 32 of 54 (429021)
10-18-2007 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by itrownot
10-18-2007 11:29 AM


itrownot writes:

In case you haven't noticed, I posted an apology to you this morning for unleashing my trirade a few hours ago on gen's thread, so I won't repeat that here.

:)

I just was reading your musing re Eph 2:8 and would like to suggest that you simply parse the sentence carefully for its true meaning.

I don't look for "true meaning" in one verse - or in the whole Bible, for that matter.

... it is only by the grace of God that we are able to receive our salvation as a result of our faith in Jesus.

If there are conditions or qualifications on the "gift" it isn't really a gift, it's more of a sale.

The assumption that I'm questioning, as per the topic, is that faith has anything whatsoever to do with grace. Grace would be grace with or without faith.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by itrownot, posted 10-18-2007 11:29 AM itrownot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by itrownot, posted 10-18-2007 12:29 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 54 (429026)
10-18-2007 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Nuggin
10-18-2007 11:54 AM


Re: The Jesus of the Bible ain't the real Jesus
To hold that the Jesus of the Bible is the sum total of the man is ridiculous.

Did I say that? Or are you just sayin'?

Cause I don't know anyone who thinks that.

The Bible records only SOME of what Jesus said. Were the rest of his words just completely worthless? Did he not say ANYTHING to any of the other apostles?

No and no. I think that's obvious. Why do you feel the need to point that out?

But, if Jesus was divine and inerrant, then EVERY SINGLE THING he ever said was important.

Consider the hypothetical situation:

Peter: "Hey Jesus, how's it going?
Jesus: "I'm well, how about you?"
Peter: "I'm well too."
Jesus: "Cool."

You'd consider that important? More or less improtant that him taking a shit?

Where is the 99.99% of the things he did and said?

Lost in history.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Nuggin, posted 10-18-2007 11:54 AM Nuggin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Nuggin, posted 10-18-2007 1:30 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
itrownot
Member (Idle past 4104 days)
Posts: 71
Joined: 10-15-2007


Message 34 of 54 (429028)
10-18-2007 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
10-18-2007 12:08 PM


I wasn't expecting you to expect me to define what I meant by the "true meaning" of a sentence, ringo, for pete's sake! I suppose that was my error, though. In any event, you can call it a sale as opposed to a gift if you like. I only wanted to point out that the verse itself is not all that difficult to fathom so long as you parse it out.

Grace and faith are entirely independent entities here, IMO, so, although I hesitate to assume anything with you, it seems we agree on that point.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 10-18-2007 12:08 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 10-18-2007 12:49 PM itrownot has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16350
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 35 of 54 (429037)
10-18-2007 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by itrownot
10-18-2007 12:29 PM


itrownot writes:

... you can call it a sale as opposed to a gift if you like.

Just to be clear, I'm not the one who's saying that grace is a sale. I'm saying it would be a sale if Paul's words were interpreted as most Paulians do (and as you seem to do).

I'm saying that if grace is truly grace, then faith doesn't enter into it and we have to find a meaning for "through faith" that's a few fathoms deeper.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by itrownot, posted 10-18-2007 12:29 PM itrownot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by itrownot, posted 10-18-2007 1:37 PM ringo has responded
 Message 41 by itrownot, posted 10-18-2007 1:47 PM ringo has responded

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 599 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 36 of 54 (429050)
10-18-2007 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by New Cat's Eye
10-18-2007 12:21 PM


Re: The Jesus of the Bible ain't the real Jesus
You'd consider that important? More or less improtant that him taking a shit?

You feel you are in a position to determine whether or not something which God said is worth listening to?

The foundation of YEC is that this one sentence that Jesus said was written down correctly and outweighs the 99.99% of the rest of the stuff he said.

So, consider this exchange lost to history:

Mark: Hey, Jesus, did you mean creation literally took six days?
Jesus: Well, not "days" like a 24 hour day. It's an allegory.
Mark: What's an allegory?
Jesus: It's like a parable, a story to express a concept. It's not to be taken literally.
Mark: Oh, cuz me and the other guys thought you meant 6 actual days.
Jesus: No. That'd be crazy. Hey, are you writing this down?
Mark: Nah, I'll remember to write it down later.
Jesus: Be sure that you do.
Mark: Right-o Chief. Hey, pass the wine.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-18-2007 12:21 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-18-2007 1:35 PM Nuggin has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 54 (429051)
10-18-2007 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Nuggin
10-18-2007 1:30 PM


Re: The Jesus of the Bible ain't the real Jesus
You feel you are in a position to determine whether or not something which God said is worth listening to?

For me, sure.

The foundation of YEC is that this one sentence that Jesus said was written down correctly and outweighs the 99.99% of the rest of the stuff he said.

Fuck YEC :D

What's your point?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Nuggin, posted 10-18-2007 1:30 PM Nuggin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Nuggin, posted 10-18-2007 1:42 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
itrownot
Member (Idle past 4104 days)
Posts: 71
Joined: 10-15-2007


Message 38 of 54 (429052)
10-18-2007 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by ringo
10-18-2007 12:49 PM


Whatever do you mean by "if grace is truly grace, then faith doesn't enter into it"? You don't seem to fully understand the construct: a measure of divine grace was necessary in order that we might be saved by our faith (as opposed to some other means, if any). God exercised this measure of grace. You seem to be wholly offended that God didn't simply wave a wand over you to make you pure. (This seems to me very immature thinking on your part.) The fact that you must exercise faith as a condition of your salvation does not diminish the measure of grace that was afforded to you by one iota. You are forgetting or ignoring the fact that, as a beneficary of this plan of salvation, you have been shown unmerited favor by God. This is "truly unmerited favor", shall we say, thus it as is "truly grace" as it can be.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 10-18-2007 12:49 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 10-18-2007 1:42 PM itrownot has responded
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 10-18-2007 1:55 PM itrownot has responded

    
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 599 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 39 of 54 (429053)
10-18-2007 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by New Cat's Eye
10-18-2007 1:35 PM


Re: The Jesus of the Bible ain't the real Jesus
Fuck YEC

What's your point?

That the YECrs are crack pots who've teetered their entire faith on the head of a pin.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-18-2007 1:35 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 40 of 54 (429055)
10-18-2007 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by itrownot
10-18-2007 1:37 PM


On Grace and Faith
Whatever do you mean by "if grace is truly grace, then faith doesn't enter into it"?

Faith is irrelevant to the existence of Grace. The idea of Grace is that God forgives. That no man starts out damned. It's a done deal.

The only question is whether you believe that or not. That is where Faith comes in. Do you believe in Grace?

Grace exists regardless of whether or not you have Faith in the fact.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by itrownot, posted 10-18-2007 1:37 PM itrownot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by itrownot, posted 10-18-2007 2:01 PM jar has not yet responded

  
itrownot
Member (Idle past 4104 days)
Posts: 71
Joined: 10-15-2007


Message 41 of 54 (429056)
10-18-2007 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by ringo
10-18-2007 12:49 PM


BTW, I'm not saying that "grace is a sale" either, as was just demonstrated in my previous post. That's something you brought up by your own convoluted (read: twisted) logic. You say we need to find a meaning for "through faith," but I suggest you come up for air and look closer to the surface--it's not to be found "a few fathoms deeper," as you suggest. Again, just parse the sentence. Tthere's no great mystery to it at all, so quit making it so difficult!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 10-18-2007 12:49 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 10-18-2007 2:01 PM itrownot has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16350
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 42 of 54 (429058)
10-18-2007 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by itrownot
10-18-2007 1:37 PM


itrownot writes:

You seem to be wholly offended that God didn't simply wave a wand over you to make you pure.

No, I'm saying that that's exactly what He did do: He made us all pure. By grace, for no particular reason, He pre-forgave us for everything we do wrong. It's our responsibility to do as little wrong as possible and to try to fix what we do do wrong, for our own sake and for our neighbours' sake - not for His sake.

The fact that you must exercise faith as a condition of your salvation does not diminish the measure of grace that was afforded to you by one iota.

Putting any kind of condition on grace would nullify it completely.

You are forgetting or ignoring the fact that, as a beneficary of this plan of salvation, you have been shown unmerited favor by God.

Actually, you're the one who's ignoring that. We have been shown unmerited favour by God - unmerited by our actions and unmerited by our faith.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by itrownot, posted 10-18-2007 1:37 PM itrownot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by itrownot, posted 10-18-2007 2:18 PM ringo has responded

  
itrownot
Member (Idle past 4104 days)
Posts: 71
Joined: 10-15-2007


Message 43 of 54 (429060)
10-18-2007 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by jar
10-18-2007 1:42 PM


"True" Christian, I have already explained what I believe is meant by "for by grace are ye saved through faith." I doubt that you and I would ever agree on how grace works beyond that. I believe God has shown me grace, and, of course, that God shows grace to others as well. Beyond that, I think there exists plenty of dogma to go around for anyone who desires to partake of it. No offense intended, but you asked me.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 10-18-2007 1:42 PM jar has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16350
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 44 of 54 (429061)
10-18-2007 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by itrownot
10-18-2007 1:47 PM


itrownot writes:

... I suggest you come up for air and look closer to the surface....

I scratched the surface a long time ago. You don't find gold just lying around waiting to be picked up. You have to dig for it. :)

Again, just parse the sentence. Tthere's no great mystery to it at all, so quit making it so difficult!

The topic is about questioning the assumptions of faith, not swallowing them hook, line and sinker.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by itrownot, posted 10-18-2007 1:47 PM itrownot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by itrownot, posted 10-18-2007 2:35 PM ringo has responded

  
itrownot
Member (Idle past 4104 days)
Posts: 71
Joined: 10-15-2007


Message 45 of 54 (429067)
10-18-2007 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by ringo
10-18-2007 1:55 PM


You know, ringo, I honestly feel that you are merely acting the part on me. Are you a contrarian or something? I mean no disrespect by that, but you just refuse to deal in the substance of things. It's always like, "no, you're the one whose doing that." I feel like I'm in the old Abbot & Costello bit "Who's on first", and it's almost as comical, too (but nly to a point). Seriously, I'm beginning to question your sincerity.
You gotta help me out on that score--I'm not into buffoonery or clowning around for hours at a time.

Now you've accused me, among other things, of ignoring the fact that I have been shown unmerited favor by God, and then you proceed to restate the very point I made in my previous post. Can you understand my frustration? Are you only just toying with me?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 10-18-2007 1:55 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 10-18-2007 2:39 PM itrownot has responded

    
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