Free will, or is it?

quote:

---

No its not. The modal fallacy is the error of treating modal conditionals as if the modality applies only to the consequent of the conditional.

​

That is not what I am doing.

---

It's exactly what you are doing. Here is your argument:i. If someone has foreknowledge of your choice A, then you must choose A.
ii. Someone has foreknowledge of your choice A
Therefore, you must choose AThe same argument can be made for past events:i. If someone knows you made choice A, then you must have chosen A
ii. Someone knows you made choice A
Therefore, you must have chosen AIn both cases, the must is only qualifying the consquent, whereas it should be qualifying the entire "if-then" proposition.Why is the conclusion wrong in the second case but not the first?

quote:

---

I'm saying that you cannot choose a different choice than the one that they have foreknowledge of.

---

The choice they have foreknowledge of is the one you will make, or else its not foreknowledge. You can choose whatever you want still, it will just be known beforehand the choice you will make.

quote:

---

However, if their forknowledge is absolutely accurate, then you do not have the ability to change the decision that you have not made yet.

---

You want the ability to change the choice you will make? That doesn't make any sense. There is nothing to change because you haven't made the choice yet!

quote:

---

You haven't made the choice yet so you're not changing your choice. You are changing what they have foresaw you doing and then that makes their foreknowledge false.

---

It's not foreknowledge if it turns out false. Edited by humoshi, : No reason given.

Hi Logic, I did not see this one until I went back to previous page to catch up reading.God has Angels that worship Him because they are made without choice of doing anything else. They are like robots. They do what they are programed to do.God wanted more. So He created man.
Now if He programs the man like the angels why bother?
God wanted to be loved, respected and worshiped just because He is God.
So before man was created, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit counted the cost of creating man.God knew Adam would sin and separate man from fellowship with God. But God did not want robots so He made Adam with the ability to choose.God the Father and God the Son made an agreement that God the Son would pay the price to purchase mankind back out of the bondage Adam would sell mankind into.God counted the cost and decided that He loved me enough He would make man and give me an opportunity to spend eternity with Him. I believe He would have done it if I had been the only one to accept His offer of a free pardon. That is what makes it so wonderful to me.Now I think you are wrong about the harvest.
Since there are many that never reach the point the man and woman did when they ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God gets all of those and that includes the 88 who are aborted every minute.Then there are many who do exercise their free will and believe God to do what He says He will do.Since this is God's game and He made the rules, and knew the final score before He made the first man I am persuaded to believe He wins.God knew the choices everyone would make. If He was to interfere with your choice He would not get the desired result of you making your choice.You guys are supposed to have scientific minds. Look at what God did as a laboratory experiment.If you start an experiment you can let the experiment run it course or you can interfere. But if you interfere you are changing the results.God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

quote:

---

God has Angels that worship Him because they are made without choice of doing anything else. They are like robots. They do what they are programed to do.

​

God wanted more. So He created man.

---

That makes no sense unless God himself is a puppet, he wouldn't be able to create angels without already knowing that he wanted more from a creation.

quote:

---

God knew Adam would sin and separate man from fellowship with God. But God did not want robots so He made Adam with the ability to choose.

---

But he then clearly wanted man to suffer, otherwise why does he create adam and the conditions to sin?

quote:

---

God the Father and God the Son made an agreement that God the Son would pay the price to purchase mankind back out of the bondage Adam would sell mankind into.

---

So he made an agreement with himself about the payment for a crime committed by another and which payment would be made by unconnected parties. Forget my mafia example, he's more sick than that.

quote:

---

God counted the cost and decided that He loved me enough He would make man and give me an opportunity to spend eternity with Him. I believe He would have done it if I had been the only one to accept His offer of a free pardon. That is what makes it so wonderful to me.

---

That if you were the only one to accept, that the rest of us would burn in hell? that's wonderful to you? Couldn't he just give us an opportunity to spend eternity with him by not constructing a system that he knows lead to the fall and sin?

quote:

---

God knew the choices everyone would make. If He was to interfere with your choice He would not get the desired result of you making your choice.

---

But you miss the point - he already knows the outcome of the conditions that he has set up, that people don't believe is a direct result of the how he decided the universe would be.

quote:

---

You guys are supposed to have scientific minds. Look at what God did as a laboratory experiment.

​

If you start an experiment you can let the experiment run it course or you can interfere. But if you interfere you are changing the results.

---

that is a wonky example - God acts from a position of perfect knowledge, he knows how every infinite combination of interaction will (or more importantly would)work out before he forms the universe. He knows that forming the universe in thatway will cause a tree to fall on you billions of years in the future killing you and driving your daughter to suicide (and her going to hell) - he can change that variable before he starts and change the outcomes as he pleases - because if he was not able to do that, he would not be the christian god concept described in the various bibles.Edited by CK, : cmtEdited by CK, : cmt

Hi Logic, Free will is your choice.God created man and gave him the ability to choose.He limits Himself so as He will not interfere with your exercising your free choice. Even though He knows that choice whether it is the choice He wants you to make or not.And yes it takes it out of the control of anyone except YOU.God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Who's supposed to be omniscient, you or God? If you're not omniscient, how the hell do you know all this? Why does God put you here to give tell other people to believe in him when he already knows whether or not they're ever going to believe in him?Does he just like doing pointless things? And if you know the answers to all these questions, are you a prophet or a seer?

Hi CK, You have the same opportunity I had.All you have to do is exercise your free will trust God and receive the free full pardon right now.It is your choice. Exercise your free will.As of this moment you have no one to blame but yourself.God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

So God does like doing pointless things. An omniscient being doing experiments to find results that he already knows?

quote:

---

So God does like doing pointless things. An omniscient being doing experiments to find results that he already knows?

---

No no no - don't get sucked into this trap of using the word "experiment" - how can it be an experiment if the designer can control every variable to the absolute level, can alter ever variable variable to the absolute level and knows the outcome of every possible variable across an infinite number of combinations before he starts. There is no experiment.

quote:

---

You have the same opportunity I had.

---

There is no opportunities - every possible combination of variables and how they would interact is known to god before he starts, the combination of variables he picks directly leads to the outcome, whatever happens is the direct result of the infinite number of choices that he made when completing his programming of this clockwork universe.

quote:

---

All you have to do is exercise your free will trust God and receive the free full pardon right now.

---

I cannot do that unless the variables that he has decided will be present and will interact will allow me to follow that path - if he wants the CK drone to find faith, then before starting the universe, he would have selected the variables that would lead to the outcome.

quote:

---

It is your choice. Exercise your free will.

---

Impossible to have free will in a universe created by a being with perfect knowledge of past,present and future and has total and utter control over the variables and how they will interact.

quote:

---

As of this moment you have no one to blame but yourself.

---

I blame the creator of this clockwork universe, although I cannot see the strings I can only play the part that the variables he chose allow me to.

Exactly. I was actually laughing at someone else's use of it. The idea of an omniscient being doing experiments just tickles me. Shortly, I'll try the experiment of turning my computer off to see if it turns off. It's the nearest I can get to the imitation of God, something Christians tell us we're supposed to attempt.

which makes the "god send a part of him self to earth to get nailed to a plank of wood to solve a problem he created and knew would exist and could have avoided entirely from the start" even more head scratching.This line of discussion always makes me think of this:CONTAINS SOME MINOR USE OF SWEARWORDS THEREFORE MIGHT NOT BE WORKSAFE WHERE YOU ARECthulhu and Christ – Armed and DangerousEdited by CK, : No reason given.

Hi bluegenes, I think that verse answers all your questions but one.I am not clairvoyant and there is not much I can prophesy about.I can prophesy that all those who exercise their free will and choose not to receive the free pardon offered by God will spend eternity in a lake of fire.God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi CK, See: Message 42God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

The verse you quote actually contains three questions and no answers. Meaning, presumably, that your God is a sad and sadistic being.Humans have invented lots of Gods and lots of religions, ICANT, and they tend to invent Gods somewhat in their own image.The God of Jewish mythology is a petulant and irrational character, made in the image of a rather primitive chief or King who requires others to kneel before him, and punishes those who don't.The chances of such a ridiculous character having created this universe are less than one in a trillion.

Hi bluegenes, I am the preacher, the message has been presented now it is up to you to exercise your free will. That is better odds than the scientific method put forth.Have you checked the odds of abiogenesis happening?The odds you give God is a lot better.Sounds like you have already exercised your free will and made your choice. You could change your mind.God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."